Opus (2025)

Episode 480, 2 Guys and a Chainsaw Horror Movie Review Podcast

Todd: Hello and welcome to another episode of Two Guys and a Chainsaw. I’m Todd.

Craig: And I’m Craig.

Todd: This week we come back to the modern age with 2025’s Opus. 2025 was last year. It is the writing, directing debut of a guy named Mark Anthony Green, who really hadn’t done anything before this except a short. So I’m kinda curious as to what his story is because he’s got John Malkovich in this thing.

Craig: Mm-hmm. 

 Todd: Along with several other people. Juliette Lewis was in here. I hadn’t seen her in a while, I don’t think. And Ayo Edebiri. She was in an episode of Black Mirror that was quite good, I remember. 

Craig: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. She was. It was good. 

 Todd: The, uh, voice of Envy in Inside Out 2, April O’Neil in the 2023 Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, uh, TV series, and quite a handful of other things.

I really enjoyed watching her in this movie. 

Craig: She’s great. 

 Todd: I hadn’t heard of this. I hadn’t seen it before, so this was my first time seeing it. But this was your pick, Craig. Tell me all about it. 

Craig: I had seen it. Heh. I, I say this regularly. I mean, she’s a friend and a fan of the show. Heather recommended it to me.

I had never heard of it before that, but I, I always take her recommendations. We share similar tastes. And I was not at all disappointed. I really, really like this movie. It’s, it’s difficult to believe that it’s somebody’s first go-around because I think it’s skillful. It’s good. It’s well-written. It’s well-directed.

And like you said, the people in it. I am such a huge fan of John Malkovich because he is crazy. 

 Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: I, I think that he’s a crazy person, and I think that he’s potentially one of the most talented actors in the world, just because he will just… I don’t even know how to describe it. Like, he will just go anywhere.

 Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: I, I, I don’t know how to describe it. He, he’s just fantastic. Like, he seems crazy, and I think that he kind of is a little bit. I think you have to be a little bit to be as talented as he is, but he’s good. And he’s great in this movie. And you said you felt like you haven’t- Seen Juliette Lewis. She’s around.

She’s working. 

 Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: She was doing Yellowjackets- 

 Todd: Okay … 

Craig: for a while, and I really liked her in that, and I don’t wanna spoil while she’s not on it anymore. Oh, 

 Todd: okay. 

Craig: But she’s fa- I, I… She’s another one of those people who I think is a little crazy. 

 Todd: Mm. 

Craig: She just translates so well on screen, and honestly, the role that she plays in this movie is kind of subdued for her.

 Todd: Yeah. It kinda is, isn’t it? 

Craig: Yeah. But, but she’s… I, I just absolutely love her, and I was watching this with Alan last night, and just looking at her, I just kept saying to him, “She is stunning.” She’s a, I think, a few years older than me, so 50-ish, I think, and she doesn’t look a day older than she did 20 years ago.

Like- Yeah … she just, she looks fantastic. She, a- a- and, and she’s great in this movie. And then there’s another guy in this movie. I don’t know him from a lot. Murray Bartlett, uh, who plays Stan in this movie. He’s been in several things, but he was in one episode of The Last of Us, right? That’s that video game show, right?

 Todd: Yeah, yeah. 

Craig: He was in one episode of that where he played a gay dude. 

 Todd: Oh, that’s right. He was one of those two guys. 

Craig: Did you see that? 

 Todd: Oh, God. I’d… That was an amazing episode. 

Craig: It was so, so good, and he was so good in it, and I’ve seen him in other things as well, and, and he’s just a very talented actor. And again, he doesn’t have a whole heck of a lot to do in this movie either.

But he’s great. So, and like you said, I, I don’t know how to pronounce her name, but the main girl- 

 Todd: Ayo Edebiri? I, I… That’s my guess … 

Craig: this young Black woman, and she is very talented, and I, I thought she was great in this movie. Like, I can’t imagine that I’m gonna have anything negative to say about the movie.

Like, I thought it was great and twisty and tense, and I didn’t really know what was going on in a lot of it, and I, I don’t know. It, it, it felt… I don’t remember if it is or not, but it felt very much like an A24 movie. It was- 

 Todd: It is an A24 movie. Yeah. 

Craig: Is it? 

 Todd: Mm-hmm. 

Craig: Well, it feels like it. 

 Todd: Yeah. That 

Craig: was 

 Todd: one of the first things I noticed, yeah, when it came up.

I’m like, “Oh, this is an A24 movie.” So the- we kind of know it’s a type. It’s gonna be a little quirky. It’s gonna be- 

Craig: Yeah … 

 Todd: kind of intense, a little more modern. And you’re right, the filmmaking is quite good. No complaints about the cinematography, about the editing, about just how it looks, how it’s shot, the pacing, everything.

flows really well. Uh, God, it wasn’t even very far into it that I’m thinking The Menu. 

Craig: Yeah, yeah. I can see that. 

 Todd: This felt so much like The Menu that it, when it got, I don’t know, it was probably 20 minutes in, when it got to the scene where everybody’s assembled having a weird meal, I was like, “My God.” I had to go back and look and see if this was directed by the same guy, you know?

I just couldn’t believe it. And it has a lot of that flavor. It’s this, supposed to be this take on, oh, criticism and celebrity culture, I suppose. Uh-huh. Yeah. So it’s very, very much of the same vein. But I have to say, I liked The Menu a whole lot better. I, I… It’s unfair to compare these two movies. They’re completely different movies.

Yeah. But at the end of the day, I was hoping for a more coherent message behind it, something like, I don’t know. The resolution was a little lacking for me. I don’t know. I, I don’t know what it was, but I felt like something was missing. 

Craig: It’s an interesting plot, and I just, I, I kinda want… Okay, uh, but we say this all the time, like, if you haven’t seen the movie and you wanna see it, turn this off- Yeah

and, and go watch it. 

 Todd: It’s twisty. 

Craig: It, it’s twisty, and I’m gonna spoil things right out of the gate, because I don’t know that I necessarily picked up on this the first time around. But in reading about it and preparing to talk to you about it- 

 Todd: You got some fresh takes. 

Craig: Yeah. I, I, I read a suggestion that I believe that everything that happens in this movie is by design, that John Malkovich, this enigmatic character, planned- 

 Todd: Yeah

Craig: all of this. And, and, and though it seems to not turn out in his favor, ultimately it does. And the way that things turn out are by design. He, he wanted it to turn out the way that it does. Though, from voyeuristic perspective, it may not seem like it, it does. It, i-i… everything turns out the way that he wanted it to.

 Todd: It, he quite literally says that at the end, doesn’t it? Doesn’t he? 

Craig: Yeah, yeah. I mean- Yeah, he does. 

 Todd: Yeah. I mean, he says, “We chose you.” We- she says, “Why did you choose me?” He says that they needed somebody to get the message out, you know, all that stuff. So I wasn’t surprised. Guess, I guess I was a little surprised by the end.

But by the end I was actually so, I don’t wanna say confused, but more or less like, “Oh, that was it?” That by the end when he did explain that, I thought, “Okay, yeah. Okay, that’s fine. I get it. It kinda makes sense.” But it didn’t blow me away. You know what I mean? Yeah. We should talk about it. We should walk through the plot a little 

Craig: bit.

I’m not blown away by it. Yeah. I mean, we should. We should, and I, and I want to. But I, I think that it’s… I just think that it’s a really interesting take on the cult of celebrity because- 

 Todd: Yeah. It’s a literal cult of celebrity in this movie. 

Craig: Right. 

 Todd: Right. 

Craig: As much as anything is, you know? When it comes to these people who are so- influential and have so much money, and they can literally do anything they wanna do.

Mm-hmm. 

 Todd: And 

Craig: they do. 

 Todd: I was actually thinking of Prince when we watched this because I think Prince sounds like he was an amazing person. Yes. Just everybody talks about how sweet and won- and nice and wonderful he was. Benevolent. Mm-hmm. And benevolent, and he’s just very, very… I mean, there’s probably never been a pop musician quite like him or, or will be.

Uh, he made music every single day. He has a whole vault filled with unreleased stuff, and he would spend a day putting something together and then just decide, “Eh, I’m gonna trash it,” and just delete it, much to the horror of everyone around him, who would be like, “He just erased this amazing song.” You know what I mean?

Craig: Right. 

 Todd: And, and so I’ve read stories about how eccentric he was, and he did live in sort of a compound of his own and- 

Craig: Yes … 

 Todd: I heard that it was a pretty unique place. And then he is surrounded by people who catered to his whims and things. Yeah. And so, uh, this, this also I think drew some inspiration from that to an extent.

Craig: Well, I, I, I think that that’s a good comparison. Uh, I, I also think that when you are that wealthy and that successful, you kind of live in a bubble- 

 Todd: Yeah … 

Craig: uh, by necessity. It’s not even necessarily by choice. And, and I think that Prince is a good example. I think that he was a brilliant artist. Brilliant.

 Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: One of my favor- I don’t even, I don’t even know if this is true. It’s probably not. You could probably Google it and Snopes would tell you it wasn’t true, but I read at one point that somebody asked Eric Clapton what it was like to be the greatest guitar player of all time, and he said, “I don’t know.

You’d have to ask Prince.” Like Right. And ag- again, it’s, it’s, it’s probably not even true, and I don’t care. I, I saw… I was lucky enough to see Prince live before he tragically passed away. 

 Todd: I’m so jealous. You’ve said this before, and I’m 

Craig: really jealous. You should be jealous. It was amazing. 

 Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: It was absolutely amazing.

He was… You know, it was an amazing show. He was charismatic and energetic and fun and funny, and he pulled fans up on the stage to dance, and, uh, you know, everybody was having… Not me. I was with nosebleeds. It was a party. It was a party, and he was great, but he was also very eccentric. Like, I, uh, I’ve heard things about him, like he really liked to roller skate, and like, so he And, and, and he would have, like, uh, like slumber parties and stuff at his house, and he was a weird dude.

 Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: But when you, when you are that successful and you have anything that you could ever want is at your fingertips- Mm-hmm … 

 Todd: I, 

Craig: I can only imagine that I would be eccentric, too. You know? Like, I would want a Baskin-Robbins in the basement and- Right … uh, a, a roller rink or, or whatever, and you can have it.

So why, so why wouldn’t you? And that’s what it seems like they’re setting up this guy to be. This guy, John Malkovich, I- you would have to tell me what his character name is, but- 

 Todd: Moretti … 

Craig: Moretti. He’s like a multi-decade successful pop star. But as I understand it, and correct me if I’m wrong, kind of his thing is that he kinda comes and goes.

Like, he’ll pop up once a decade or something- 

 Todd: Yeah … 

Craig: with a new album. 

 Todd: And in this case, it’s like 20 years, right? 

Craig: It’s been a long time. And it’s funny, it’s funny to think of John Malkovich being a pop icon. 

 Todd: Right. 

Craig: But he’s, but he, but he sells it. A- and I do believe it. And the thing, one of the things that impresses me most is that his character is coming out with this new album, you know, after like 20 years or whatever, and he’s inviting press and close friends or whatever to his island, I guess.

I don’t know. To his compound. 

 Todd: Compound, yeah. 

Craig: For kind of like a release party or, or whatever. But John Malkovich recorded a whole goddamn album for this movie. 

 Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: And you wouldn’t believe it. Like, you have to watch this mo- I, I’m watching the movie and I’m hearing his music in the background. He’s freaking amazing.

Like- It’s pretty 

 Todd: good … 

Craig: he c- The music’s good … he can sing. 

 Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: It’s not even just a matter of it sounding like John Malkovich, you know, talk-singing or something, like any actor could do. No, he is really singing pop music, both in the tenor of his voice that you’re accustomed to, but then also, like, in a literal tenor that’s, that’s high and difficult.

Like, I was blown away by how great he sounded. I would buy that album. And it exists, and you can buy it. 

 Todd: It’s funny. Well, it, it, and, and he himself didn’t write the music. 

Craig: No. 

 Todd: But the music is written by Nile Rodgers, w- the co-founder of Chic, and Nile Rodgers has written so much stuff. He wrote We Are Family, I’m Coming Out- 

Craig: Mm-hmm

 Todd: Upside Down for Diana Ross. Uh, he- he’s produced albums and singles for people, for, like, Madonna, Duran Duran, The B-52s, Lady Gaga, George Michael, Beyoncé. It’s insane that this man… Like, they got him for this movie. Like, it, it just- Mm-hmm … blows me away because this movie’s just… It wasn’t a huge hit. Uh, wasn’t it released on a streaming?

Was it just released on HBO? 

Craig: As far as I know. I don’t know. 

 Todd: I don’t know. It’s, it’s nuts. But the music that we hear in the movie is pretty good. I think- It’s a tough thing to sell, right? When you’re going to say, “This is a movie about this guy who’s supposed to be, like, this huge pop star who’s releasing his first album, and, and everybody’s praising and gushing over how great he is,” that music had better be good, you know?

Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Or else it’s not gonna work. And surprisingly, the music is quite… is good. It’s good enough. Let’s just put it that way. It’s good enough. 

Craig: And I mean, it’s, it’s, it’s poppy. Yeah. You know? Like, uh, it’s gonna depend on your taste. It, it, it’s, it’s very pop influenced. But I thought it was great, and I thought it sounded great, and I didn’t have a hard time believing.

You know, John Malkovich, I don’t have any idea how old he is, but he’s older than us. I mean, I would guess- Oh, God, yeah … in his 60s, 70s? 

 Todd: He was born in 1953, so he’s, like, my dad’s age. Wow. Yeah, he’s, uh- Yeah … he, he’s in his 70s. Nuts. 

Craig: But I didn’t, I didn’t have a hard time believing him as a pop star. No. Like, I…

You know, we, we have, you know, those icons like Cher and Elton John and Billy Joel who, yes, have been around for decades, but we don’t discount them just because they’re older. 

 Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: We revere them. And, and I believe that this is a guy who could be a revered pop icon. I believed it 100%. And he’s weird and he’s eccentric in a way that I believed, and I believed that people would go along with it.

These folks are our main character, Ariel. She’s surprised to find that she’s invited to this compound or whatever. Her boss, Stan, played by Murray Bartlett, who we talked about before, he’s invited. I, I feel like he is industry. 

 Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: I don’t know if he’s a manager or what, but he’s industry. I 

 Todd: think he’s editor, right, of the magazine that she writes for?

Am I wrong? 

Craig: I don’t remember. But she is surprised to be invited because she’s nobody. 

 Todd: Mm-hmm. 

Craig: You know? Like, she’s trying hard to make her way, but she, you know, just- 

 Todd: She doesn’t have the chops yet. You know, she doesn’t have the clout. 

Craig: Not yet. Mm-hmm. 

 Todd: N- 

Craig: well, not the clout. Right. She has the chops. She… but she doesn’t have the clout yet, and she’s trying.

So she’s surprised to be invited there. Juliette Lewis, her character’s name is Clara. She’s, like, a talk show host, I think. 

 Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: She kind of seems to be, like, an E! host or something. Like, she’s very celebrity oriented. And they’re all invited th- to this compound, I guess. It’s not, like, a release party or anything, but, like, he’s just gathering people- Yeah

to celebrate the release of this new al- and, and to show it off. 

 Todd: Yeah. Right, right. They’re gonna get, like, first listen and, and then, you know, then presumably go back and write about it and give him publicity, yeah, for the, for the new album. 

Craig: Right. And they’re all invited there, and it’s, like- 

 Todd: Yeah … 

Craig: I don’t know.

I mean, ulti- ultimately- It’s A24 and it feels very A24. Like, everything seems a little creepy from the get-go. Yeah. But at the, at the same time, I don’t know. I don’t know how rich people live. You know? Like, it certainly feels like a compound. 

 Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: A community. A cult, frankly. 

 Todd: Yeah. That- Is 

Craig: what it feels like from the beginning

 Todd: that becomes obvious pretty quickly. I mean, at first we’re shown how popular he is. There’s a cool little montage of people all around the world sort of listening to his music or hearing the news about his new album, which I thought was nice. They’ve got some of his music going around in the background.

She gets her basket. I think everybody got, like, a basket of stuff to let them know that they were invited, these six people or whatever. And then we get a title screen that was very reminiscent of Pearl. That title screen that says Opus, it, it, it was in that old-fashioned- Mm-hmm … font, which seems to be, like, a thing now.

How many movies recently have flashed, like, an old-fashioned looking title card from the 1920s? I feel like this is the third or fourth- Mm-hmm … one we’ve seen. Probably A24 film. 

Craig: Yeah, probably. 

 Todd: But yeah, they fly to Utah on a private plane, then they take a bus for four hours to this compound, and of course the camera zooms way out so we can see it is a compound.

And the minute we’re on gr- on the ground again, we see everybody’s dressed in blue, and they’re getting greeted, and they’re given vases. And, and so you’re like, “Okay, this is a fricking cult.” And that was when I started thinking Prince. But here’s one of my issues with the movie, is that it feels like there’s a lot of setup for things that just fizzle out.

Like, they’re each given a vase when they land, and it’s this blue vase, and each one of them has a different pattern. And I thought, “Okay, this will be significant later.” No. I, I mean, we never see these vases again, right? They’re just- 

Craig: Mm-mm. Mm-mm. 

 Todd: And then they lead them off, and they take away their cell phones.

Craig: Mm-hmm. Ugh, that drives me nuts. They do this in movies all the time, and again, I’m watching it with Alan, and when this happened, I just said, “No. Abso-fucking-lutely not. 

 Todd: No.” Don’t do it. 

Craig: Like, I will leave. 

 Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: No, I’ll leave. I… You don’t need my phone. Why do you need my phone and I can’t have it? No. ‘Cause 

 Todd: it’s a horror movie.

We don’t want them to be able to contact 

Craig: the outside 

 Todd: world. 

Craig: I know. I, I understand, but that’s, like, that’s what would be projected to me. Like, oh, you wanna take my phone? This is a horror movie. Absolutely not. 

 Todd: Right. 

Craig: Absolutely not. Ugh. 

 Todd: Yep, and then they go in to have a meal, and they all sit down, and of course they’re having a meal with the rest of the people in this cult.

Craig: Oh. 

 Todd: And then John Malkovich’s character makes his grand entrance and tells this very, very long joke about Muhammad Ali and Chuck Norris meeting him out backstage after one of his concerts And it’s cute. I think I’ll tell this joke again myself someday. It was funny. But then when they’re being served the meal, and again, man, I was just thinking The Menu because it, everything had that flavor anyway.

Craig: Yeah. 

 Todd: You know? Yeah. Makes sense. Just like in The Menu, all of these food critics are being invited to this compound. Here we are, all of these influencers or talk show hosts or who, anybody who has any influence at all over interviewing, critiquing, giving publicity to celebrities, musicians, is being brought here.

And they start by passing this piece of bread that each one of them has to take a bite from as they goes down the table, and it was super nasty. 

Craig: God, that was so weird. 

 Todd: Right? 

Craig: And I don’t even understand it. Because you say, okay, so it’s like a round loaf of bread, and they pass it all around. But it’s not like each person just, like, tears a piece off.

No, they take a bite out of it with their mouths. 

 Todd: Yeah, and it gets to her. She’s at the end of the table sitting next to this young girl who had cul- pulled her aside and said, “Sit, come sit next to me.” It’s, like, covered in saliva, and it’s nasty. Ugh. And she sort of pretends to take a bite. 

Craig: Yes, it’s just, it’s, it’s like, ugh, so gross.

And I still, like you said, there are several things in this movie where it’s just never explained. 

 Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: The only thing that I could take from this is that it’s some sort of, like, communion. 

 Todd: Yeah, I guess. 

Craig: What other- 

 Todd: Yeah … 

Craig: explanation is there for it? Because they never come back to 

 Todd: it. Sure, it could be whatever you want it to be.

It, that’s the thing, it could be whatever you want it to be. It’s some kinda weird thing that’s just weird for weird’s sake. And each one of them are served a completely different dish. 

Craig: John Malkovich is served a blue lobster. I, I think I read that, like, one in every two million lobsters is blue. Like, this is- 

 Todd: The rarest of 

Craig: rare

the rarest. Yeah, right. 

 Todd: Mm-hmm. But again, like, this is this thing. Like, there’s a lot of weird cult stuff that we just never get explained. And I mean, I guess that’s okay, but a big deal is made of this. Like, this is a good six-minute- Or more scene of this bread being… It’s shown from the top, it’s shown from perspective, which shows her anticipating the bread.

It shows the bread on her plate. It shows her pretend… I mean, like, it’s a long-ass scene for a thing that just, “Oh, this is something weird this cult does,” and, and that’s it. 

Craig: I know. I, I expected it to be drugged or something, but again, we, we, we never come back to it. Like, she doesn’t really… She kind of pretends to take a bite of it, which I would too, because by the time it gets to her, it’s just a ball of- 

 Todd: Ugh

Craig: spitty glop. It’s so gross. It’s disgusting. Yeah. Right. Gosh, and then, so then they go back to their rooms, and this is, you know, it’s, it’s a beautiful place. It’s, it’s excellent accommodations. If not for the crazy, I would be happy to go there. 

 Todd: Yeah, they’ve got the best rooms in the place, honestly, because they couldn’t house everybody in rooms like this.

There’s not enough room there for it, but th- this is beautiful. 

Craig: They also have, they say you have a 24-hour concierge. 

 Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: And what that really means is there’s a person that’s glued to your hip at all times, and you can’t shake them even if you want to. Yeah. Like, the next, the next day, Ariel goes for a jog, and this poor concierge, and like a, a, it’s a f- a woman, but she’s in, like, a suit.

She looks like Secret Service or something. She has to, like, chase her on this run. It’s weird. 

 Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: But they also gussy them all up. This was my favorite part. 

 Todd: Oh my God. 

Craig: They, they, they gussy them all up. They, they bring in wardrobe. Like, like, each of them is given, like, their own stylist. 

 Todd: There’s a menu, right, of events that, for them, that they’re given.

This is what’s gonna happen. And so this, these people burst into her room. She’s like, “What’s, what’s this for?” And she’s like, it points to the menu of events and says, “Well, this is the fashioning.” 

Craig: The fashioning. Yeah, and they give Juliette Lewis, like, a wig, which I also don’t understand. 

 Todd: Right? 

Craig: Like, I don’t understand what’s happening with Juliette Lewis’s wig.

I don’t understand because it’s, ’cause she keeps talking about how, like, it’s too tight and it itches and stuff, and then it seems like later it’s fused to her head. What is happening? Right. I don’t even understand. But my favorite part, they give Ariel beautiful clothes and, you know, i- it’s all beautiful.

And then the woman who is her stylist or whatever, who also very beautiful and nice, like, this is all very polite and charming. You know, it, it, it’s great. It seems like they’re being pampered. 

 Todd: Mm-hmm. 

Craig: But at the very end of it, she pulls out these giant clippers, and it’s like, “What’s going on in your lady garden?”

 Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: What? What? And she tells her, she tells her, “I have to shave your pussy.” 

 Todd: Yeah. And she’s like, “Why would that be necessary?” And she says, “Well, you know what?” She basically tells her it’s been required of every single person who’s ever wanted to come into him and interview him and- 

Craig: Yeah. And she, and Ariel’s like, “Um, is he planning on seeing my pussy?”

And she… She’s 

 Todd: like, “Probably not.” 

Craig: Stylist, “No. No.” 

 Todd: Yeah. “

Craig: He, sh- he just requires that everybody be trimmed. Don’t worry. Not shaved, just trimmed.” And then, and then 30 seconds later she goes out and meets with her friends, Stan and Clara, and just kind of casually says, “Um, did they make you shave your bush?” And 

 Todd: they’re like, “Yeah.”

Craig: What? 

 Todd: Again, this is something, a huge deal is made of this, and so you’re expecting some kind of payoff, right? Like, what kind of weird sexual thing are they, are they, are they gonna end up having to do? And there’s nothing. 

Craig: No. 

 Todd: Nothing about this afterwards. And so, like, okay. Now, before all this went down, she did have a conversation with a guy at the table, this dude who was, like, kind of his second in command.

I don’t remember his name. And he explains that they are levelists, and they prevent the destruction of creativity and ensure the divine protection of those who wield it. They’re supposed to keep things level in some strange way. And so I feel like this was, I feel like we’re supposed to be able to, over time, ascertain the purpose of this cult.

But nothing really points to it until just the very end when we get our little explanation from John Malkovich. And even then, I’m not exactly certain what this cult is trying to pull off, but- 

Craig: No, I don’t think it even really matters. Like, they’re a cult. 

 Todd: But it does matter- They’re a cult. That’s it … ’cause the whole movie’s about this cult and what they do, you know?

I think it matters. I, I, I do. Like, that’s what separates any of these movies from one another. Like, you know, The Menu was sort of about this whole resentment of the pompousness of these food critics, so he’s getting his revenge on them, and in, in these kind of clever ways serving them their just desserts, you know, pushing the boundaries of what they might find acceptable and, and, you know, kind of throwing things in their faces.

Whereas here, it’s just a bunch of weird shit that’s kinda going on. 

Craig: Right. 

 Todd: And none of it seems to really correlate to What this cult’s purpose might be and, and that Right And so, like, I, I, I really disliked not being able to decode this, and then to come to the end and find out, yeah, I don’t think any of it was decodable.

I just think it was a bunch of weird random shit. 

Craig: Right. 

 Todd: That part of it kind of bothered me by the end. But I… You know, the buildup was great. I thought, “What? All this is going to be explained.” And so that, I think, was maybe why it felt empty for me by the end is, is- Yeah … we’re gonna tell you some more weird shit and, and none of it’s gonna really have a payoff.

Craig: Yeah. I can understand why that would be frustrating. I don’t know. I mean, I just thought of it as the cult of celebrity and just kind of power for power’s sake, influence for influence’s sake. Like- 

 Todd: The fact they’ll just go along with these kind of like- Yeah … humiliating things and just, just to be close to him.

Craig: Right. And, you know, Moretti, this guy, you know, he’s just… For, for what reason? I don’t know, but he’s just continuing to spread his influence. Does he have a motive? Does he have a goal in mind? It seems like it, but I understand what you’re saying and why you’re frustrating because we… You’re frustrated because we don’t really know what it is.

Like- Yeah … it, it seems like he’s motivated to do this by something, but we don’t ultimately know what it is. 

 Todd: Right. I, 

Craig: I don’t know. 

 Todd: Well, she does also go for a jog before all this, and everyone is plein air painting. It was kind of hilarious. She just chucks by a whole bunch of people who are painting, and her minder is with her the whole time.

He- she ends up having incredible access to this guy. Uh-huh. 

Craig: I 

 Todd: mean, this guy really isn’t… For as much as they, they have these minders by them 24/7 who don’t seem to wanna let them move around, her minder reluctantly lets her go on a jog, but she’s right behind her the whole time. She ends up jogging to the pool and chatting with him.

Craig: Yeah. 

 Todd: And he’s happy to chat with her. Sh- you know, she had played one of his songs that he had left for them in the room, and she said it was cool, but she’s really interested in the religious aspect of this and asks him about why he created this and all that, and then he’s like, “Well, I, I didn’t actually create it.

I’m just, like, a part of it.” I don’t really believe that, but I think he’s just being coy. 

Craig: I don’t know. 

 Todd: Yeah. I, I, I feel like maybe his notion is, “Well, this whole concept for this thing is timeless, you know? So I’m just like…” Anyway, she asks what they do. D- is there anything they do together, like, by going to a j- like, church service or anything like that, and he’s like, “Not really, but there is one thing that we all do together.”

And he takes her to this tent out in the middle of nowhere. And in the tent, there is a guy sitting at a table furiously shucking oysters looking for pearls, and sh- he just explains that, you know, it’s rare to find a pearl inside of an oyster, inside, inside of a c-… I mean, they’re lo- they’re more like clams, but whatever.

I guess, can you find pearls in clams? These are, things are wide and flat. Uh-huh. But he, anyway, he says something like, “Anyway, the fact is that- One pearl is worth 100,000 empty shells. And I think here he’s kind of making a commentary about how special he is and how special creative people are. And in a way, they’re sort of to be elevated over everybody else.

They’re like the pearls in an otherwise empty society. They’re rare and need to be found and treasured. And this guy ends up cutting himself. He doesn’t give a shit. He just kind of walks out and says, “Well, let’s go.” And we later see that seems like these pearls are being put on the necklaces of, of his followers.

They’ve got these necklaces and they’re adorned with pearls. 

Craig: Ugh. Yeah, I don’t know. That, that whole scene was weird for me. Like, I’m looking at my ChatGPT summary of it, and it says, “The metaphor suggests the Levelists believe in extracting meaning or truth from pain or struggle- 

 Todd: Eh … 

Craig: though the philosophy remains vague.”

 Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: Remains fucking vague? 

 Todd: Pretty vague. 

Craig: It’s 

 Todd: pretty vague. 

Craig: I had no idea. I mean, that scene, as I- I- I would argue most, if not all of the scenes, the scene is compelling. 

 Todd: Sure. 

Craig: Like, it’s, it’s, it’s interesting to look at and to watch, but ultimately, like, what? It’s 

 Todd: kind of opaque. What 

Craig: are they fucking talking about?

 Todd: Well, as he- Yeah … walks away, he says, “True balance is in the understanding that all things are unequal.” So he’s kind of, like, saying that we’re Levelists. My idea or our idea of bringing balance to the world isn’t about giving everybody everything, you know, isn’t about leveling the playing field for all.

It’s in ensuring that things remain unequal, I suppose, as nature intended. I mean, if that’s kind of, like, their core philosophy, it’s kind of weird, because how does that even work? To what degree of inequality are you, are you maintaining? I mean, this is all kind of fluid. Life is fluid and at any given time, one person might rise above another or get put down, and there’s not a stasis to maintain in inequality, right?

I don’t know. I, I had a really hard time trying to decode what he’s doing. 

Craig: I, me too, because I don’t understand what is happening. Why has he brought these people here? W- somebody who we’ve not even mentioned yet, there was an- there’s another guy there, Bill. I don’t even remember what he does, but he’s, like, a core member.

And I think that he used to work with- 

 Todd: Yeah … 

Craig: the main, the musician guy, but they had a falling out, but now they’re reconciling. But then he gets murdered. 

 Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: And, and then everybody else is like, “Where is he?” And they’re like, “I don’t know. He, he’s getting a massage or something.” Like, and he just never comes back.

Still, I don’t know- What the point was. 

 Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: Like, does this guy, does he have some sort of personal beef with each of these people? And why did Ariel get invited there at all? She’s nobody. 

 Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: I, I, I don’t know. 

 Todd: She’s the only nobody in the whole group, so I guess, as you said, it’s all part of this grand plan that he’s gonna let somebody loose with the talent and ability to write about what happened so that for what I’m…

Again, it’s like you were the starting, I mean, and we’re getting way ahead of ourselves, but ultimately, like, you were the starting piece in our master plan. Like, I don’t, I don’t know. I don’t get it. But we’ll get there. Your point is, and I agree, it would be different if each one of these people here, if there were some motivation for him to not like them or for him to have a beef with each one of them.

If that is the case, it’s either so petty as to be unimportant, which could, I guess, in itself be really creepy, or there literally is nothing, because we’re never told. We’re never told. Except for Bill, I think somebody has some one-off comment that the two of them had a falling out or whatever. Nobody else- Yes

nobody else seemed to have a beef with this guy. He seems to have no beef with any of the rest of them. 

Craig: No. And, and I think that ultimately the suggestion is that all of this was very carefully orchestrated. What ends up happening ultimately is Ariel, the main girl, is the only one to escape, and she writes a book, and that’s exactly what he wanted her to do.

So I think that as unrealistic as it is, he, he had this all planned out in his mind. “We’re gonna orchestrate this whole thing. She’s gonna be the only one who gets out. She’s gonna write this expose book, which she doesn’t know, but is ultimately going to be good for me because it is going to spread my message, and I’m gonna be able to continue to spread my message elsewhere.”

 Todd: Yeah, even though I’m in prison. 

Craig: Yeah, but I mean, come on. 

 Todd: Yeah. It’s really lame. 

Craig: I mean, unless, unless you literally are in some way divine and can foresee these events, like, that’s so like, how do you know, how do you know that this assistant girl or this young up-and-coming nobody writer, how does he know about her, and how does he know that- 

 Todd: She’s gonna be able to pull this off?

Yeah. 

Craig: Yeah. Right. 

 Todd: Yeah. It’s- 

Craig: I, I don’t, whatever … 

 Todd: I mean, except for the fact that, you know, if she’s the only one to escape, I mean, what, in these situations I’m sure no- even if that’s a nobody, they’re gonna go, be able to go tell their story. You know, I’m, I suppose this happens in real life. 

Craig: Yeah. Right. And, and I, and I guess of course, of course she’ll write a book.

You know, she’s young and hungry. 

 Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: And this gives her- fodder to write a book. A- and it does, and it ends up being wildly successful, and I guess that’s ultimately what he wanted. But it’s a little difficult to believe that somebody could- 

 Todd: Yeah … 

Craig: predict that with such accuracy. Sure. It’s, ugh, it- it’s a little silly.

Well- One of my favorite parts, though, is when it’s not, I wouldn’t even call it a listening party. Like- 

 Todd: Oh, God. Yeah. 

Craig: He pulls them all together. I can’t think of his name. I’m just gonna call him John Malko- Moretti … John Malkovich- That’s 

 Todd: fine … 

Craig: pulls them, he, he pulls them all together in this large room where they are seated in a circle on some sort of, like, elevated platform, and then he performs one of his songs for them.

Which, by the way, I am incredibly impressed at his musical ability. I had absolutely no idea John Malkovich had any musical talent at all, and he’s actually very talented. Mm. But he performs this song, and it’s wild. And, like, he’s sexually aggressive with all of them, and I don’t even know how to describe it.

It’s one of those things where it is cringey to watch because he looks so silly doing this. Mm-hmm. But he’s so confident in the way that he does it- Yeah … and they are so compelled by his fame and his presence that they’re into it, too. 

 Todd: Mm-hmm. 

Craig: I can imagine that. I can imagine being, you know, again, you said Prince.

I- if I’m sitting there in one of these five chairs in a circle and Prince is being a weirdo- … I would think it was amazing. Like, I would be like, “Thank God I am here- 

 Todd: Yeah, true … 

Craig: to be experiencing this. This is amazing.” But from an outsider’s perspective, it just seems so silly and ridiculous. 

 Todd: Yeah. It’s a bit of parody, I suppose, a bit of comedy, I guess.

It also reminded me a little bit of Prince, like one of his videos, the kind of sexual stuff that he does, and with that confidence and swagger. It was cool. And these girl- th- they’re all kind of into it, like you said, and they’re all pretty much, except for Ariel, and even she’s kind of, “Okay, this is, this is fine,” by the end of it.

Kind of gets cut short because Emily, the, the Asian gal, who I think is, like, an influencer, like a YouTube influencer- Yeah … starts coughing. And they’re like, “Okay, w- why, why don’t we go outside? We’ll take a break.” And they kind of whisk her away to go to the see the doctor. So I mean, of course we know something’s going down there.

But again, like, Emily’s coughing. I don’t know why. 

Craig: I don’t either. 

 Todd: Did she eat something that the rest of them didn’t? We never see anything that indicates that she did or ate or touched or whatever anything that the rest of them didn’t. 

Craig: But she disappears at this point. 

 Todd: Yeah, she disappears. She’s gone, and she’s, and n- none of them except for Ariel- seem to care so much that those two have, are now, have been missing for a while.

Because after a while, Ariel goes out walking with her boss guy, Stan, and she’s explaining to him how this is weird, this is culty. She’d like to write a story about the cult if he wants to write a story about the m- the music. And he’s like, “I’m gonna write all the stories that come out of here, but thank you for your service.”

And as they’re outside walking, suddenly he gets shot in the arm with an arrow. Eh. I thought he was dead. I thought he was gonna die. 

Craig: That arrow goes through his torso. His 

 Todd: lung, right? 

Craig: It’s, it’s not just like it, it grazes his arm or anything. No. It goes entirely through his torso. Yeah, I thought shortly he would be dead as well, but no, he’s just, he’s fine.

 Todd: Yeah, this kid- But 

Craig: then, like, some, some kid is like, “Oh, sorry.” Like 

 Todd: Yeah. There’s no way. What? So obviously he got shot by an arrow on purpose. Why? I don’t know. I don’t understand. Because the next scene, he’s just bandaged up and they’re sitting around drinking and laughing in a room together. 

Craig: Right. 

 Todd: That was so unsatisfying.

Craig: But she, I don’t know. I have no idea. 

 Todd: Is the i- 

Craig: What I do know- 

 Todd: Well, let me just say, maybe the idea that he’s trying to get across here is that these people will literally put up with anything. It’s just not as satisfying as it could have been. Like, it- it’s just, he’s shot in a, with an arrow, everyone’s a little horrified, but then the kid comes up to apologize, and then the next thing you know they’re all sitting and laughing and that’s it.

Okay. I guess there was a point to that. But it wasn’t made very clear. That’s just my best guess. 

Craig: Yeah, I don’t know. It’s funny. To listen to you talk about it, I feel like we experienced this movie differently. Mm-hmm. Like, I just didn’t really ask, I just didn’t really ask these questions. Yeah. I was engaged.

I was genuinely engaged in the movie. It was pretty to look at. It, it was well acted. And so I was like, all right, whatever. I- Yeah, okay … who knows what the fuck’s going on. But fine, whatever. 

 Todd: That’s fine. 

Craig: Ariel starts getting suspicious and she somehow, I don’t remember how, shakes her concierge or whatever, and she gets away and she finds, like, this shed that’s like a taxidermy shed or whatever, and it’s weird and she thinks it’s weird.

We, the viewing audience, see that that guy, Bill, we see his corpse in there. 

 Todd: Yeah, underneath one of the tables. Yeah. 

Craig: Right, but she doesn’t see it. But she’s freaked the fuck out, which she should be. She should get out of there, and she wants to. And sh- and she says, “I want to go.” 

 Todd: Yeah, she packs her stuff.

It’s, the next morning she starts walking out. And she gets confronted with every- by everybody. Yeah, she asks where Bill and Emily are, and John Malkovich is quite reasonable about all this. 

Craig: Uh-huh. 

 Todd: He’s like- Yeah … “Hey, she’s- 

Craig: He’s, he’s calm. 

 Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: He’s level. Yeah. 

 Todd: Even some of his people are like, “You should be grateful.”

And he’s like, “No, no, no, no, no. Chill out. She’s scared, she’s nervous, obviously that’s our fault. I’m sorry, whatever it is, like, certainly you can leave.” And, and she’s like, “Tell them to get the bus ready as soon as it comes back. It’s gonna be back in, like, 40 minutes, and then you talk to so-and-so and make sure the plane is fueled up and ready to take her as soon as the bus gets there.”

And, and the little girl speaks up, and is like, “Oh, but she was gonna, she’s not gonna c- see the puppet show.” And he’s like, “Well, you know, I mean, if she doesn’t wanna see the puppet show, like, you know, she doesn’t have to see the puppet show. But, oh, you know, maybe since the, the, the puppet show building is, is really close by to where she’s gonna leave, like, she, she could sit and watch the puppet show.

We could, we could make that happen now while she’s waiting for the bus to come. W- would you like that?” 

Craig: Right. And he sa- he’s like, “You know, you don’t have to if you don’t want to, but we’ll position you so that the exits are free, like you can see the exit.” Mm-hmm. Like, “I don’t want you to be uncomfortable, whatever makes you comfortable,” but the little girl wants him to stay for the puppet show, so she decides to stay for the puppet show.

And then the puppet show is fucking weird, and I don’t even know… I feel like there’s a statement here, but I don’t really understand what it is. Yeah. The puppet show is a, a marionette Billie Holiday singing, and then, like- 

 Todd: A bunch of- A 

Craig: bunch of- … 

 Todd: gross rats, you know, drop down as news reporters and interviewers suddenly interviewing her, asking her the same inane questions celebrities get asked.

Craig: That’s it. I think it’s supposed to be some commentary on celebrity. But I don’t know. I don’t 

 Todd: get it. I’m sorry. I have to say, none of this actually makes that much sense either, because this guy, look, he is a pop superstar for decades or whatever. He’s literally trying to drum up publicity for his thing.

These people, as, as inane as they probably think this is, and as many of these actors who have to go on tour and answer the same questions every single time, I think it’s just like the sports figures who are asked every single time on the f- field after a game, “How was it? What was going through your mind?”

and all this stuff, and they always give the same answers. “Well, you know, we p- we played a good game. You know, we just wanted to get out there and do our best, and we tried our hardest and, and we, and we succeeded.” It’s the same answers to the same questions. It’s just part of the process. It’s part of the game- Right

and it benefits those people. It benefits the artist. You can say these people are rats and things, but really they’re getting the benefit out of it. 

Craig: Right. 

 Todd: They’re getting the publicity. And I mean, yeah, there are the paparazzi who chase them down and make their lives miserable- But that’s not really what’s being portrayed here.

What’s being portrayed here is the talk show host and the influencer and- 

Craig: Right … 

 Todd: the news reporter who are doing their job that helps the, the person get their, their publicity. Right. You know? It’s- 

Craig: Right. And, and John Malkovich is famous to the point where he is very insulated. You know- Yeah … he, he doesn’t really have to d- He 

 Todd: doesn’t even need this really.

I mean- No, no … his whole announcement was good enough. Everybody got excited. 

Craig: Right. What’s the, what’s the point? 

 Todd: Yeah. So it’s a thin… Even by the end of it, he never comes out and says, “See, you rats. You’re all rats. You’re all terrible people,” blah, blah, blah. It just, no, no. It just, okay. 

Craig: Well, and I, I think that ultimately, like, his larger plan takes advantage of that.

Like, I don’t- Yeah … even think that he’s necessarily criticizing it. He’s just saying, “This is the, this is the way things are,” and he exploits it. Like, that’s, that’s his… As celebrities do. 

 Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: I, I’m not a celebrity. I can’t be in the mind of a celebrity, but as much as they complain about the paparazzi and whatnot, a- as you suggested, that’s their bread and butter.

Like, you need- 

 Todd: Oh, yeah … 

Craig: exposure. Ultimately, you want exposure. I understand. I, I, I’m sure that it feels very invasive to have people taking pictures of you all the time, but ultimately, that’s what you want. 

 Todd: Well, and I was gonna say- At 

Craig: least it seems like 

 Todd: it … how many movies and TV sh- stories have we seen and read and heard of washed up celebrities who are turning around going, “Where is everybody?

Why is nobody interested in me anymore? Where’s the paparazzi? Why, why am I not getting interviewed?” 

Craig: Right. 

 Todd: So it’s, it’s kinda silly. 

Craig: It’s a, I’m, I’m, I’m sh- I’m sure it’s a double-edged sword. 

 Todd: Of course. 

Craig: You know? Of course. I, I, I’m sure, I’m sure that that’s very frustrating to have to put up with, but again, that’s where you’re getting your exposure.

It’s where you’re making your money. I, 

 Todd: I… Yeah. 

Craig: I, I- 

 Todd: Anyway … 

Craig: I, I can only imagine. You know, I see some celebrities who I revere, who are very talented and seem like good people, who really get… It, it takes an emotional toll on them. 

 Todd: Sure. 

Craig: And I believe that. Oh, yeah. I believe that. 

 Todd: I would hate to be a celebrity, honestly.

I would hate it. 

Craig: Me too. Absolutely. No, I, I do not want that kind of scrutiny. 

 Todd: I want the money. I don’t want the fame. Yeah. Right. Give me the money, please. 

Craig: Right. I mean, I’ll take the fame. I just don’t want the scrutiny. Like- Yeah … let me be in movies, let me be on stage, and take pictures of me there, but don’t take pictures of me- 

 Todd: At home

Craig: you know, with, with my kids or, or going out in my boxers to get the mail or whatever. Mm-hmm. Like, like, I, I get it But anyway, while they’re watching this dumb puppet show- … 

 Todd: what’s 

Craig: her, Ariel’s, they’re all sitting in beanbag chairs. 

 Todd: I like this bit. This, I’ve never really seen this before, but it was fun. 

Craig: Oh, this was wild.

This was wild. Something in her beanbag chair moves, and she jumps up and she’s like, “There’s something in my chair.” And like, the beanbag chair unzips and it’s that girl, the, the girl who had the- Emily, yeah … breathing, yeah, the, the breathing incident or whatever. And she crawls out of there and her face is all messed up and bloated and, like her lips and tongue are all swollen and stuff.

And, and this is basically when the curtain drops. Right. And John Malkovich is like, “Uh, yeah. We’re fucking with you on purpose.” Like, and, “And we’re gonna kill you.” And Juliette Lewis gets like, they, they drag her by her hair, this wig which has somehow mysteriously fused itself to her head. And like, they, they’re dragging her by that, and it’s like ripping off and like her scalp is coming off and the other guy, the hot guy-

tries to get away and, and I don’t know. They, they subdue them. 

 Todd: Mm-hmm. 

Craig: Somehow Ariel gets away. She 

 Todd: runs out the window. 

Craig: She ju- yeah, she like leaps out of a window I think. Mm-hmm. 

 Todd: But the others get brutally stabbed. 

Craig: Do they both? Do they both g- oh, that’s right. 

 Todd: Yeah. By, uh- Oh 

Craig: my gosh … 

 Todd: by the, that, that crazy assistant he’s got, that girl who’s like- 

Craig: Uh-huh

 Todd: from the very beginning one sandwich short of a picnic. 

Craig: Yeah, she’s brutal. Yeah, she’s brutal. She’s hard and cold and scary from the beginning. And then Ariel runs away into like- 

 Todd: A house called The Rhinestone Chalet. What was this all about? 

Craig: I don’t know. Again, I’m, I’m, I’m reading this on ChatGPT, but it says she finds a replica of Moretti’s childhood home.

Oh 

 Todd: my God, really? 

Craig: Um, o- okay. Okay. Oh. 

 Todd: All 

Craig: right. 

 Todd: How did, were we supposed to know this? 

Craig: I don’t know. I don’t know. Did 

 Todd: I miss something on the screen or something? 

Craig: There’s a, I, what I do remember, I couldn’t remember we were watching it and she’s walking around and like I feel like there’s maybe mannequins in there or something.

So it’s, it’s, it’s kind of eerie nonetheless, but she’s, you know, trying to avoid these people that are chasing her, and so she’s running all around in the house. And at one point there’s a guy’s head mounted on the wall. 

 Todd: Was that 

Craig: Bill? And I… Yes. Yes. It was Bill, but I looked at Alan and i- in this very tone of voice said, “Who 

 Todd: is that?”

Craig: Why is his, why is there a head on the wall? 

 Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: Oh, God. 

 Todd: It was weird 

Craig: But they catch her. Oh, and it’s, it’s violent. That, that scary girl that you were talking about before catches her- 

 Todd: Yeah … 

Craig: and, and knocks her unconscious. And when she wakes up, she’s, like, in the middle of a ritual or something. 

 Todd: Yeah. And- 

Craig: I think they’re gonna sacrifice her.

But then the, the woman who shaved her vag is like, “I’m gonna set you free.” With 

 Todd: that. Oh my God. 

Craig: I don’t know. I don’t- 

 Todd: Well, she had seen in the house cyanide on the same shelf as some champagne. This ritual or whatever has everybody pouring champagne into glasses, and they’re all gonna drink it. And so I think in her mind, in my mind too, they were all gonna kill each other, like, you know, the typical cult thing is.

Craig: Sure, sure. 

 Todd: And they’re trying to force her and the other girl who’s behind her tied up also to both drink this champagne. And she breaks free just in the nick of time and runs off, gets on a four-wheeler and takes off for the g- chain link fence at the gate. She’s pursued by that woman. She climbs a chain link fence, and there’s a fan on the other side.

There’d been fans gather outside- Yeah … the compound and there’s apparently one guy still left who’s got a, a car there. 

Craig: Right. 

 Todd: And she she ultimately, like, gives him a little karate chop to the neck, which, uh, incapacitates him enough for her to grab, get in the car and run off, drive away. And I’m like, “Oh God, well, she got away.”

And, uh, the next thing we see, two years later. 

Craig: Well, the… I, I, I feel like don’t the cops come into the compound? 

 Todd: We see this, yeah, as a, as a flashback. 

Craig: John Malkovich is just kind of there by himself playing the piano- Yes, yes, 

 Todd: yes … 

Craig: like waiting to be taken or whatever. 

 Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: And he does get taken and he gets put in jail.

Mm-hmm. And yeah, two years later she’s written a book. 

 Todd: She’s being interviewed. 

Craig: And been very successful. Right. 

 Todd: And she gets approached by his, Moretti’s publicist again, and says that Moretti’s available for that interview you’ve always wanted to have with him in prison. So she goes and she sits down, and this guy’s pled guilty to everything.

Craig: Mm-hmm. 

 Todd: But the detail that gets revealed to us is the fact that they didn’t find any of the bodies of the rest of the cult members. 

Craig: Right. 

 Todd: So- 

Craig: Right … 

 Todd: she’s asking him, “Where are they?” And all this stuff, and he’s… Anyway, he’s being weird, and eventually he just tells her, “Yeah, well, this is our cult, and all of my people are scattered, in hiding, waiting for their moment to come out, and they’re doing the bidding for a while.

And thank goodness we have you, because it was my plan all along that you would come out and write this book, so thank you very much.” 

Craig: Right. And we see them, like, as he’s explaining this, like- 

 Todd: Mm-hmm … 

Craig: they’re out there, they’re spreading the word, and we just see them. Mostly people who we recognize as having been his followers there.

 Todd: Including- 

Craig: Yeah … 

 Todd: that kid. 

Craig: That’s what I was gonna say. Yeah, 

 Todd: from 

Craig: the- The, the guy, the, the fan outside who helped her get away. Mm-hmm. So again, as implausible as it is, it appears that all of this was meticulously planned. 

 Todd: Right. 

Craig: And, and she just fell right into their hands. Like, she, e- everything worked out exactly the way that they wanted it to.

 Todd: It’s, um- Ugh … it’s a really elaborate way of accomplishing this. Could’ve been much more simple. I mean, the word would get out somehow. You know, I’ve like, you’ve got a weird cult that does weird shit. You kill some people, and people are gonna know about it. The police are eventually gonna come. I- it’s just so, there’s nothing clever.

There’s no, like, clever way that this all ties together, like each of these people were selected for a purpose, and their purpose was served by, in their death or whatever. Like, it, or, or you know, I was trying to make this grand statement, and so I carefully selected each of these people, so now you can see my grand statement was made.

No. At least other cult movies that are like this kinda do that. I mean, it’s, 

Craig: I- I don’t know. Like, I, I did find it a little satisfying that the last time that we see her, she’s on a talk show promoting her book, I think, and she’s wearing a pearl necklace. Now, I don’t know- The talk 

 Todd: show host is, yeah. 

Craig: I- oh, the talk show host is?

 Todd: Yeah. Okay. So it means that she’s one of his, his- 

Craig: Oh, that’s right, that’s right. That’s right … 

 Todd: people too. So his people are out there 

Craig: Yeah, it’s widespread. I don’t know. I fi- I found that a little bit satisfying. Like, it’s, it’s creepy 

 Todd: But also that’s why that message kind of doesn’t… You know, the whole notion that maybe he was punishing these people for being the vultures they are, that falls flat when one of his own followers is out there hosting a talk show spreading the word.

But yeah, it’s creepy. It’s meant to be creepy. It just didn’t make a lot of sense, I thought, and I found that unsatisfying. 

Craig: It doesn’t make a whole lot of sense, but ultimate- I, uh, who cares? 

 Todd: You know, like- I know. You just went with the idea, here’s a crazy cult doing crazy things, one woman escapes, and then at the end it turns out that he, she was part of his plan all along.

Craig: And it was compelling to watch. Like, again, Alan didn’t wanna watch it. I kind of forced him to, and the whole time I was looking at him and I could tell that he was compelled. He didn’t want to admit it- 

 Todd: Sure … 

Craig: because he didn’t want to confess that I had shown him something that- 

 Todd: That he enjoyed … 

Craig: he found compelling.

Um, and 

 Todd: I 

Craig: don’t even know that I would go so far as to say that he enjoyed it, but it’s interesting and, and, and it’s, it’s not slow. Like- 

 Todd: No, it’s not. D- 

Craig: I feel like there’s, there’s always something going on, and you’re always questioning, like, what is happening? 

 Todd: I agree with you. 

Craig: And ul- ultimately, if you’re left unsatisfied with some of those things, I think that that’s fair.

But I was compelled throughout. I was very much compelled by the performance of the lead actress. 

 Todd: Yeah, she was great. 

Craig: She was fantastic. She was absolutely fantastic. I love Juliette Lewis. I, I have loved her since she was a teenager and, and I just think that she is so compelling on screen. There’s just something about her.

 Todd: Mm-hmm. 

Craig: A charisma. Uh, I am a huge fan of hers. John Malkovich is weird- 

 Todd: Mm-hmm … 

Craig: and it works great in this movie. 

 Todd: Yep. 

Craig: So good. Murray Bartlett, who plays Stan, hot.

And also a good actor. Like, I just felt like this, it, it… For me, it just had everything going for it. Ultimately, was it perfectly satisfying in terms of plot? I don’t know. Like- … I’m definitely left with questions, but the ride was fantastic. I loved it. I loved this movie. 

 Todd: All right. All right. Well, that’s fine.

You can love this movie. I, again, I found it, like I said, I just found a little unsatisfying. I didn’t, I just wish it had been tighter with the writing. I wish that the story had made more sense. You’re right, though. I mean, I’ll give you that. I was compelled the whole time through. I thought it moved. There was a lot of mystery But unfortunately, when you set up a lot of mystery, I kinda want it to be resolved.

And when it doesn’t get really resolved, it kind of- Fair … kinda casts a bit of a shadow over the whole thing. It feels lazy. 

Craig: Mm, fair enough. 

 Todd: So. But yeah, I wouldn’t, I wouldn’t steer anybody away 

Craig: from it. Yeah, but listeners, I was gonna say it, listeners, don’t listen to me. It’s, it’s a really good movie. I’m telling you, it’s really good.

If you come back in the comments and, you know, present legitimate criticism, I will hear it. ‘Cause I do think… It, it’s not that I think that your criticism is, is not legitimate. I, I, I think that it’s fair. I just enjoyed it so much. I’ve seen it twice at this point, and I enjoyed it both times. So in terms of watchability, it’s a good movie.

 Todd: Hmm. There you go. Well, thank you guys so much for listening, and I really hope you enjoyed this episode. If you did, please send it to a friend. You can forward them to our website, chainsawhorror.com. Obviously, we’re everywhere the podcasts are. Just Google Two Guys and a Chainsaw podcast. And, uh, check out our Patreon, patreon.com/chainsawpodcast.

We’ll take you to a place where for five bucks a month, you can get complete access to our unedited episodes, minisodes, and a book club we have going on behind there, and all kinds of other goodies. So check that out, patreon.com/chainsawpodcast. Until next time, I’m Todd. 

Craig: And I’m Craig. 

 Todd: With Two Guys and a Chainsaw.