The Brood (1979)

Episode 464, 2 Guys and a Chainsaw Horror Movie Review Podcast

Todd: Hello and welcome to another episode of Two Guys and a Chainsaw. I’m Todd. 

Craig: And I’m Craig. 

Todd: Well, it’s about time we got back to another tribute episode, an actress that, uh, we have seen all over television and, uh, has actually played in at least one of the earlier movies that we’ve done. Curtains had passed away.

Her name is Samantha Egger. She was an. English actress. I didn’t realize this because I don’t know if I had ever seen her with a British accent. Anytime I’d seen her, at least in my head, it’s always been American who came over to the States, uh, back in the seventies or so, moved to the States and started starring in horror films.

Before she started moving up through television, did the Love Boat, did all kinds of TV shows. Star Trek, the Next Generation, all the way up to Disney’s Hercules in 1997. She was Hera in that one. Oh. So, uh, she’s had quite a career and I think she’s one of those actresses where, at least for me anyway, I hear the name.

I’m not quite sure who she is, but when I see the face I’m like, oh yeah, it’s that lady. So, uh, we decided to do one of her most famous roles over here, the Brood by David Cronenberg from 19 79, 1 of David Cronenberg’s. Earlier works. I would say I had seen this before as a kid, I think maybe on television.

It came on and I just popped in and out of it. So the only thing I really remembered about it was the ending. So I was very excited, uh, to come back and revisit this, have an excuse to do that, and celebrate, uh, Samantha ER’s life. How about you, Craig? Had you seen the brood before? 

Craig: I don’t think so. I really don’t think so.

I mean, there were parts of it that were a little bit familiar, but I think that’s just from seeing clips of it here and there, because I’m shocked that I haven’t seen it because it’s well known. It’s, you know, kind of, I don’t know if you’d call it a cult classic or I don’t know. All of Cronenberg stuff is weird and kind of in its own category, but I don’t think I had seen it.

Before this, and I honestly, the, the, the actress that we’re talking about, I, she’s not somebody that I am super familiar with, but her face is super familiar to me because there are a couple of images of her from this movie that I have seen. So many times there, there’s one, I’m looking at it on IMDB, right, where she’s kind of backlit or lit kind of from above.

So her hair is kind of glowing all around her, and I’ve seen her face a million times. I’ve, I’ve seen this movie talked about, I think that maybe. It had been spoiled for me at some point. I kind of had an idea of what was going on, but no, this is the first time I’ve actually, I, I believe I’ve sat down and watched the whole thing.

Todd: Yeah, it’s uh, it’s quite a movie and again, like you said, it’s one of his more famous ones. Uh, maybe just ’cause it’s one of his earlier ones, but it definitely put her on the map and it has a lot of other stars in it. It’s got Oliver Reed. Uh, we had, uh, done burnt offerings, I believe. With Oliver Reed in it and were impressed with his performance and that, and I was really impressed with his performance in this as well.

He just has an intensity here as this Dr. Hal Raglan and the other person in this movie, art Hindel, a guy who I looked at and I was like, God, he looks so much like Peter Dinklage and I’m, I was just like, I know I’ve seen this guy around before, but I’ll be darned if I can. You know, remember why, I mean, he’s been all over the place.

He’s been an, he’s still a working actor to this day, has a really good striking look to himself. These really cool eyes, very expressive. And I think the thing that really struck me the most about this movie and why I thought it was also a. Turned out to be a good one for showcasing Samantha Eggers talents is David Cronenberg really gets up in people’s faces here.

This is all about, it’s it’s mostly drama in, in a way. 

Craig: Yeah. 

Todd: And it’s in some ways kind of soap opera like I thought. And he just, uh, it’s really just about the tension between these characters and there’s constant tension between all the characters in this movie. Everyone seems to be hiding a little something or suspicious of something, and he’s really up in their faces as they’re interacting with each other, and you can just see it.

And I think it’s a rare actor who can pull this off in a sustained way without it getting super corny and super cheesy. And I, I don’t think it really got that far, but it, it’s definitely a heightened sort of sense in this film. I thought everything’s a little heightened. 

Craig: Yeah. I mean, the cronenberg is kind of like that, and I, I.

I feel like he does, and I’m totally spit balling because I didn’t do any research at all. I just watched the movie. But I feel like I, I do remember seeing something about how he was inspired to write this. By his experience with his own divorce and custody stuff. Mm. And there’s definitely that element of it here and, and I feel like his other movies are like that too.

They’re metaphors for some real human experience, like you said. It really does mostly feel like drama, except there’s this kind of weird mystery in the background. And it reminded me of a couple of things. It reminded me, gosh, I, I’m not gonna be able to, um, think of the name of it, but that movie, oh gosh.

Deep Red. Is that the one? 

Todd: Yeah. Maybe 

Craig: Donald. Donald Sutherland. And there’s a mysterious little person in a red 

Todd: Oh, 

Craig: slicker. 

Todd: Don’t look now. Don’t look now, 

Craig: don’t look now. It reminded me of that a little bit. 

Todd: Well, the, the little kid running around with a like red jumper is, is, seems almost directly ripped off from that, doesn’t it?

Doesn’t it in a way? 

Craig: Well, I, they are so similar in that you, you keep seeing these small people or whatever, but you, they, they’re careful not to show you much if any of their faces. And so who are they? What’s going on? So there was, yes, it’s very, very similar to that. It also though, not as dark, it reminded me of that Sam Neil movie that we did about the couple that were having problems and 

Todd: possession.

Craig: Possession. Yes. It gave me kind of those vibes too, though that movie was much darker and far more emotionally intense, so it reminded me of some things. Uh, I honestly, I didn’t take very many notes because I don’t feel like a lot happens. Yeah. 

Todd: It’s very slow, and that would be my criticism of it. Honestly.

It’s so slow. I, it’s an hour and a half and you know, just like most movies, things really get going about half an hour into it. And then there’s stuff that happens. There’s some murders that do happen and then it’s kind of an another. It’s almost until the last 15 minutes that you really, everything starts to kind of quickly come around to a, to a head where you really know for sure what’s going on and, uh, the evil has to be confronted.

And up until then, it’s, it’s a lot of drama and a lot of figuring out, like you said, this mystery. You’re right, because possession almost felt like a movie that could have been done by Kronenberg. It takes this real life. Issue of divorce and then throws this weird body horror and surrealism into it.

This movie has elements of that too. It’s not quite as surreal, but it’s it’s out there by the end of it. 

Craig: Yeah. And it’s not that the intrigue isn’t interesting. It is. I, I, I do think you’re right. The, it’s. It’s paced too slowly, I think. But I mean, the intrigue is interesting. It opens up with this doctor played by Oliver Reed, Dr.

Raglan, and he’s doing some sort of therapy session with these people now. They call it at some point, like PLAs plasma something. 

Todd: Psycho plasmic. 

Craig: Psycho plasmic. I have no idea what that means, or if it’s a real thing. 

Todd: It’s not. 

Craig: But part of it, part of it is like, oh. Uh, like psychodrama, which is a real thing, and I think is weird when people like role play and stuff.

Todd: Is that called like gestalt therapy or something like that? I think, I can’t remember 

exactly. 

Craig: I don’t know. Maybe I, I’ve heard it referred to as psychodrama, but only. From Layman. I, I have no idea what the technical thing is, but that’s part of it. And he’s doing that with this guy and it, he, like, he’s roleplaying as the guy’s dad and the other, the guy is roleplaying as himself and he seems like he’s playing himself as a younger kid and he’s like begging for his dad’s affection.

And the doctor is like emasculating him and calling him a girl. And his name is, I think Michael, and he calls him Michelle. And he’s just really demeaning and really putting him down. 

Clip: I could just think of you as a girl all the time. Couldn’t I buy your frocks and your dresses and your frilly hats. And your frilly scarves?

And you could be, you could be daddy’s little girl. I wouldn’t have to be so fucking ashamed of being seen with you in public, would I? What do you think of that, Michelle? Sounds like a good idea. Don’t, daddy, don’t. What did you say? Something such a soft little girl’s voice. I couldn’t hear what you said.

Hate you, daddy hate you. Speak up, girl. Hit you and hate you because I love you. It makes me feel guilty inside. 

Craig: I don’t understand what the point of this is, 

Todd: right? 

Craig: But. While it’s happening, the more agitated this guy gets, he starts developing sores all over his face and body, and as he gets more agitated, they get bigger and more open and disgusting until at some point the doctor gets this guy to a peak where he like screams, I hate you, daddy, and 

Todd: here’s what you do to me.

Craig: Yeah, yeah. Here’s what you do to me. And all the sores are like. Festering and disgusting. But then what he, the, the doctor just kind of brings him back down from it and the sores go away, right? 

Todd: Yeah, it’s interesting. He throws open his shirt, they see all the wounds, and this is like a performance, uh, I, it’s obviously like people visiting his clinic or whatnot, seeing this happen, and they’re all shocked and somebody calls him a genius and then they hug and, and he’s kind of done.

And you’re right. I do wonder what, what part of the process is this therapy and how is this helping him? It just seems to be drawing out his trauma. But I think the. Premise of this psycho plasmic, which isn’t a real thing, is that somehow through this therapy and through them exhibiting their trauma and getting it out, they actually manifest physically in some way.

In this case, this guy’s sores happened in his body. 

Craig: Why would they want to do that? I don’t understand. 

Todd: I have no idea. 

Craig: There’s another character later who. Isn’t really important, but he helps out somewhere along the line. But he wears like an Ascot looking kind of thing, and it’s because he has these huge, disgusting tumors growing out of his neck because of this treatment.

Like, 

Todd: yeah, I mean, 

Craig: why? Why would anybody go? Why would you? Why would he even want that? 

Todd: I think from the, the very get go Cronenberg is setting up this Dr. Raglan as a, as an evil scientist, you know, he feels sinister from the beginning. He, I think that really never goes away. You don’t. Sense. I I never got a sense that this doctor’s motivations were pure.

Craig: No. 

Todd: And so, yeah, it, it feels like he’s experimenting on these people. And, you know, the, the very beginning, the opening scene you mentioned is like a big experiment that’s playing out in front of everyone. And while everyone’s going, yeah, this is great, or whatever, what does it actually mean? Doesn’t seem to be crossing their mind unless there’s a whole bunch of theory that he’s written books on that, you know, you could read and, and they would say something about that.

But 

Craig: it is, and he has, he’s written books like He, something about. Anger, 

Todd: rage, 

Craig: I don’t remember. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Rage. Yeah. He’s kind of a famous guy, I guess. I don’t know. Maybe it’s just because it’s innovative. I like, well, look what we can do. I don’t know. Okay. Whatever. But I mean, it was the seventies, one of other Yeah, that’s true.

Todd: These were big. We’ve talked about this, another movies that we’ve done around here about the fascination around psychotherapy and things like that and, and how far and where it could go. So I think this is very much in the realm of that. Yeah, 

Craig: that makes sense. One of his patients. Seemingly his favorite patient is a woman named Nola, the, the actress that we’re attributing today, and she’s under his care 

Todd: willingly, 

Craig: I’m not really sure, like, but her husband is Frank, played by Art Hendle, and they have a daughter, this little blonde girl who is like the off-brand version of Carol Ann.

Todd: Yeah, she sure is. 

Craig: And that’s a mean thing to say. She’s a cute little girl. But anyway, they have this daughter and I guess they were having marriage problems. I don’t remember exactly why the mom ended up going to this doctor, but she’s in inpatient treatment and she’s not supposed to see the husband at all, and she only gets visits with the daughter on the weekend.

But the dad at the beginning of the movie, picks the daughter up from the visit and takes her home and notices that she’s like covered in. Scratches and bruises. So he tells the doctor, I’m not bringing her back here anymore. She’s not safe and, and seriously, like that’s, it’s, it’s more about that family drama than anything else.

Yeah. And as much as I, as much as I really do like Miss Eggers and this. Role and I think she’s great. Does she ever get out of that bed? 

Todd: I don’t think so, no. I mean, I think, you know what, we’ve talked about some of these movies where it feels like they could have shot their role in a day. I think they shot her role in four days.

That’s what it says in the trivia. And that, and that shows, because she’s in the same place, in the same outfit, the same bed pretty much the whole time. I don’t think she even stands up. 

Craig: No, I don’t either. Yeah. 

Todd: And but, 

Craig: and, and like you said, she’s always shot and fair, you know. Pretty close up. So at least from the waist up.

And she’s just, you know, got the heaven lights and her hair is all like bouffant and beautiful and it’s, it’s strange. 

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: Like what is happening? 

Todd: We only see her when she’s kind of there and she’s. Playing this madness, but you can almost, it’s hard to know, right? It’s hard to know what her problem is because we don’t real, we, we come in in the middle of this.

All we know, like you said, is that he’s here for this intense treatment. Frank seems very skeptical of all this. I think 

Craig: Uhhuh 

Todd: not just. Because of her, but skeptical of the doctor as well. And when he confronts her and says he wants to see his wife, he’s like, you can’t. And then he says he wants to not carolanne, to not come Carolanne.

I call her Carolanne the girl to not come here anymore. And he’s like, you can’t do that either, because she’s entitled to custody. And so he’s like, I’m gonna talk to a lawyer. And he says, all right, good luck with that. Go ahead and do that. And then he goes and talks to the lawyer, and then he goes and talks to the kid’s grandmother.

And then we get the doctor doing the session with Nola. So it’s like. You said a lot. I think there are a lot of scenes early on in this movie that we wouldn’t see in a modern horror movie. We wouldn’t necessarily see all this talking to the lawyer and figuring out all this what he can and can’t do. And then the grandmother has some significance, I think.

And the grandmother looks really young to be this girl’s grandmother. 

Craig: Yes. 

Todd: But nevertheless, I think she wasn’t much older actually than Samantha Egger. The actress herself, but um, the grandmother’s there. And I think for me at this point anyway, I was starting to crystallize a little bit of what I thought this movie was ultimately about.

Yeah, I agree with you. I think it’s about divorce and that’s certainly a theme that runs through it, but I feel like this movie’s also a little bit about how trauma kind of gets passed down through the generations. When he’s talking to the grandmother and the little girl is in there, she’s talking about her own daughter and how she’s in the therapy and how she’s blaming her for her issues and doesn’t like the fact that this has bring, brought attention to, and these things that happened years ago are, are coming back to haunt them.

Clip: I guess you know now what it feels like, what it feels like being a parent, being blamed for everything, to have the past distorted so you don’t even recognize yourself in it. Your child’s version of the past, that is Juliana. Candace is only five she’s working on right now, believe me. 30 seconds after you’re born, you have a past and 60 seconds after that, you start to lie to yourself about it.

Todd: And later, well later she dies. And the father, so clearly they’re, they’re divorced as well, right? This, this woman’s parents. Yeah. And later the father comes back and he makes a very pointed statement how, I think it’s horrible that you guys have to go through the same heartaches that we went through.

It’s enough to make you cry. 

Craig: Right, right, right. So I think maybe the mom maybe had had some struggles before. Yeah. Because when Dr. Rag, when Dr. Ragland does his. Psycho nonsense with Nola. He role plays Kandy, the daughter, the little girl, he speaking as her, says, I can’t come see you anymore ’cause you hurt me.

And she said, 

Clip: no I didn’t, sweetie. You must have had a bad dream. Mummies don’t do that. Mummies don’t hurt their own children. They don’t. They never do. They never do. They sometimes do sometimes. Then they’re bad mummies they up mummies. 

Craig: And Ragland’s like, like who? And she’s like, like my mom. 

Todd: Right. 

Craig: And then, and then we see her mom, who doesn’t seem like a crazy person.

She, she’s drinking heavily. She seems like a drunk, but I don’t know. Frank doesn’t seem concerned about leaving the kid there with her. 

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: That when she’s talking to Frank, she says something about how when Nola was a kid, the issues that she’s having now. She had had before 

Todd: right. 

Craig: When she was a kid, and she would get really upset and she would wake up covered in these weird bumps.

Todd: Mm-hmm. 

Craig: Which means nothing to us now. 

Todd: Right. 

Craig: But, but put a pin in that. 

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: Because it’s important. Yeah. And then you said, and then she dies. But the, so the way that she dies is somebody, you see a fist break through a window in the kitchen and then this child. 

Todd: Yeah, 

Craig: it looks like a child, like in like a, almost like a snowsuit, like a two piece snowsuit with a hood that’s drawn kind of tight around its face, but again, you don’t see its face.

Much comes in and destroys the kitchen. Now, meanwhile, the grandmother and the daughter and the granddaughter are just in the adjacent room. And this goes on for a while, and the grandma’s like, do you hear something? Like the whole kitchen is being smashed. And then when she finally, and then she, when she finally goes in there, she opens the door and it doesn’t look as smashed as it should, but this little thing, this little person, and it’s got kind of weird hands.

A little claw, like 

Todd: it seems like it can climb up and grab, grab onto things, you know, scurry around on the ceiling. 

Craig: Yeah, it’s like a spider monkey. 

Todd: Yeah, it really is. 

Craig: Yeah. It can jump, it can jump all over the place and it makes weird noises and it like it attacks her and beats her to death with something.

Todd: A meat tenderizer. Yeah. Bees are to death pretty brutally. I would say. I, I, you know, it’s not like crazy special effects. This is, I think, an era where Cronenberg wasn’t really going all in on the, I mean, there’s gore and there’s, there’s a lot of grossness later, but as far as like this woman getting attacked, it’s just a lot of blood going everywhere and you don’t really necessarily see closeups of the impact.

But I thought this was just very brutal beating that this woman got As do everybody in this movie who dies, they seem to all get brutal beatings. Yeah. And it’s really intense and it’s that very bright red blood that’s going over everything. 

Craig: Yeah. And there’s, I mean, there’s an obvious thread to how these people who are being murdered are connected to one another.

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: But they just don’t really put it together. Like then the grandpa shows up and he is like, oh, it’s terrible that she’s dead. And then he goes to the hospital and introduces to the doctor and he’s like, I wanna see my daughter. And the doctor says no. And he is like, well, her mom died. I have to tell her her mom died.

And he’s like, no, you can’t tell her. It’ll disrupt her therapy or whatever. Yeah. And I think, I think that he threatens to come back with police or something, I don’t know. But he, he makes a threat, 

Todd: Uhhuh. 

Craig: And then there’s a little interlude where Frank, he visits the guy with the gross tumors growing out of his neck, for reasons that I don’t remember.

But it’s a result of Ragland’s treatments. We find that out and Frank has candies. Teacher Ruth over for dinner. Then we go back to the grandpa who has gone to the scene of his Wi Ex-wife’s murder, and he’s looking around and like. Being sad and lays down on the bed and one of those, that weird kid thing, whatever it is, is under the bed, just crawls out from under the bed.

Todd: That was shocking. 

Craig: And beats him to death with something. 

Todd: Yeah, but not before. We get a lot of. This grandfather’s trauma. He’s walking through the house, he’s drinking, he’s, he’s going on and on about, oh, what, you know, what I did? And this guilt that he feels that’s never, you know, again, it’s never really expressed directly, but because of the earlier conversation with the grandmother, I.

It’s clear that their family dynamic was difficult. 

Craig: Yes. 

Todd: And there was some abuse in there. Somewhere in there there was some kind of abuse. I, I remember that at one point all the doctor changes to become daddy. Right. For Nola and Nola’s, like, you never protected me. Right. You know, you saw what happened, you saw what mommy was doing to me, and you just turned away.

So it’s almost like a regression therapy, I guess, in a way that this doctor is doing on them. 

Craig: I guess 

Todd: to what end, again, I, I don’t know. Like because is the idea that she. Repressed this trauma and he had to bring it out. 

Craig: I don’t know. 

Todd: I don’t know if that’s the case, but it doesn’t really matter. The point is that Frank is concerned and he’s building a case for full custody.

So he’s taking pictures of this girl’s back, he’s visiting the teacher, he invites the teacher over, while he has the teacher over, he gets the call that Fran, that, uh, the, the grandfather’s dead. So he has to run out and ask the teacher to babysit, and while the teacher babysits, she gets a phone call from Nola.

Screaming at her, basically saying, uh, are you and are you and my husband having a little PTA meeting of your own? You know, you’re a bitch. 

Craig: That was funny. 

Todd: Love that line. 

Craig: But, but when Frank ran out, the reason he ran out, he didn’t get the call. He ran ’cause he was worried about the grandpa. He, he knew he had been drinking.

Oh, 

Todd: you’re right. 

Craig: So he ran over there. So he gets there right after the grandpa’s been killed, and as he’s standing there looking at the body, the little spider monkey thing jumps on him, 

Todd: right? 

Craig: And then it runs away and he sees it run away, but then it just like dies. 

Todd: Yeah, it’s, yeah, it just dies for no reason and.

He, he, you gotta admire Frank Stoicism through all this, don’t you? Frank Is just, when you think about his character, this guy’s not reacting the way I would react to everything. He’s very calm, he’s very measured, he’s very curious. He just stands and stares at this kid for a while, watching him die, and then goes to the cops.

It’s, it’s just, 

Craig: yeah. And then he’s like walk. He’s doing a walk and talk with a cop and. The cop says, we didn’t know that little freak was in there. We looked around, but he’s so small. I’m like, what are you talking about? Small. He was hiding under the bed. He’s, yeah, he’s not like, he’s like Tom Thumb or something.

He is 

Todd: as tall as my 7-year-old is. You know Jesus. 

Craig: Yeah. He’s hilarious. But then, then they do a medical exam on it. And for some reason they do it in a room that’s completely lit in ultraviolet. 

Todd: Was, do you think so I thought that was just a camera, like a decision because it’s told, it’s really told in flashback he’s driving down the, the car, in the car down the street.

And, uh, he’s having, I think a memory of what they had, just what he just left. 

Craig: Oh, okay. Okay. I think I missed that. So anyway, they do this medical exam on it and the, he’s like, Frank’s like, why it die? And he’s, and the guy’s like, you see this little like balloon sack on its back, that’s, its something hump and it’s like a gas tank and when it runs out, it dies.

Okay. And and he is like, do you notice anything else? And somebody immediately says, he has no naval. And he is like, that’s right. No naval. That means it was never technically born, 

Todd: right? No teeth, no tongue. Tongue was too tough for speech. He thinks it can only see in black and white. It’s just so funny how matter of fact.

There’s like this clearly sort of otherworldly creature sitting there on the thing, and he is just, they’re just casually standing around. Oh yeah. Wow. That’s really interesting. Well, thanks Doc. And they leave like, presumably, I don’t know. They bury it. They’re all done. I don’t know, but this is, this is pretty typical Kronenberg.

He’s not really worried about the reality of these things, so we don’t need to be worried about it either. But then I think, uh, this is when they all kind of get together because Frank is trying to build a case, uh, for custody and he looks like he’s going to sue the doctor. So at some point, this guy that he had visited, like you said, with a giant lymphoma in his like, um.

Nursing home, I guess is where he was, brings Mike that previous patient with the sores all over his back that we saw from the beginning into his room and invites Frank there because he had earlier said there are other people you know who’ve had problems with this guy. Right. And that’s when we get a lot of exposition from Mike.

Mike says, NOLA is the Queen B. 

Clip: What did you mean when you said is the queen bee? Well, she’s the queen. Be all right. She’s the star. She’s the one he’s interested in, and the rest of us don’t count anymore. She doesn’t even have to pay for it. And that’s because she’s the one who was born to prove that psycho plasmic is the ultimate therapeutic device.

That’s a quote. Mm-hmm. 

Todd: At this point, Raglan heard about what went down and the discovery of this kid, and he asks his assistant to pretty much dismiss all the patients, all the adult patients. He says, except for Nola. Mike tells Frank Frank’s like, why did he dismiss all the patients and why is he still keeping my wife?

And well, Mike’s like, well, because he wants to be with your wife. He wants to be alone with her, is what he says. So that, again, it’s like there are all these, like you said, these divorce dynamics going on. There’s a little bit, I guess, jealousy, there’s suspicion, there’s confusion, there’s custody, there’s all of this stuff.

It’s very real. You know, I have to say as I a, as a person who’s gone through that myself, it, it hits me viscerally when I see this stuff going on. Sure. I mean, we’re well past all that now, but you know when you go back and you think about it, yeah. It’s very real possession. This movie, they’re really good at conjuring up what that’s actually like.

He’s gonna go visit the class, right? To pick up his daughter and run over and try to figure out what’s going on. By the way, I really like the fact that this was shot in 1979, and I think Cronenberg picked the most seventies of locations he could possibly find. Everything is like wood. The buildings are kind of that style of wood, and, and the paneling on the walls is wood and the architecture and everything, including the school that he goes to where the parking lot.

It, it just looks like an exterior that I would’ve seen on Sesame Street that was filmed in the late seventies when I was watching, you know, I mean, just everything about it plus their outfits, like the, the wide ties. The corduroy suits and giant collars. The hairstyles, I just felt like I’d been dropped right in the seventies and it never led up through the whole movie.

And I, I love that part about it. 

Craig: That’s funny. 

Todd: Did you not get that sense when you were watching? 

Craig: I don’t know. It felt, I mean it all that time period, I don’t remember it well, but like when I see pictures of my parents and stuff, like that’s, 

Todd: yeah. 

Craig: And, and where they lived and all that kind of stuff. So it’s very familiar to me and yeah, I mean, it, it was.

You, you’re definitely immersed in this time. Uh, right. For sure. But yeah, I don’t remember why he’s going to the school, but we see, 

Todd: just to pick her up, I think his daughter, 

Craig: oh yeah. We see candy at school and two of those weird kids show up. 

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: And they like. Grab her and steer her out of the room. 

Todd: They just kind of usher her out quietly and she just goes along with them uhhuh.

It’s very odd. Right? And it’s terrifying. 

Craig: Yeah. And then they come back in the room and all the kids are looking at them. ’cause I think at this point we can see their faces. I mean, it’s been revealed. We know that there’s some weird thing. They’re not. Human. So we see their faces and the kids all see their faces and they’re looking at them like, what the fuck?

And then the teacher turns around and they beat her to death right in front of her first grade class. 

Todd: Oh my God. Oh, 

Craig: and the kids are just standing there like wide-eyed, just watching their teacher be bludgeoned to death in front of their face. 

Todd: I mean, I mean, what would you if you were a kid? I don’t know what, I don’t know what I would do in this situ I, when something that extreme happens right in front of you.

I, I think we’d be shocked at how pe, how people would react, especially little kids. 

Craig: Oh, especially kids. Sure. Kids wouldn’t know what to do. I think I would run and, and 

Todd: one of ’em runs out 

Craig: and Yeah, I was gonna say, and one does, and he runs out and it just so happens that Frank has just arrived and he’s like, help, help.

The bad kids are hurting. Mrs. What’s her name? Or whatever. And he runs in there, but she’s already. Totally dead and totally the kids are just standing, standing around her mutilated body sobbing. Yes. 

Todd: And And he grabs one of their drawings, places it over her face and just walks out of there. I’m like, what?

Is there anybody in here 

Craig: leaving the children? 

Todd: Yes, completely fine. Well, he’s most concerned about his daughter ’cause his daughter’s missing. So I guess I kind of get that, but holy shit. I mean, who’s gonna take care of these kids now? What’s going on? Maybe the principal comes in, you know this stuff. 

Craig: Then the weird, can you be my daddy guy?

Tells Frank that Raglin is only concerned with the disturbed kids in the shed. Why didn’t he tell him that before? I 

Todd: know, right? 

Craig: Yeah. I don’t get that. And, and he is like, and the, they, you know, they’re these disturbed kids and they live in the shed and Nola takes care of them. 

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: Okay. So Frank goes to the shed.

Todd: Yeah. And kind of a distracting day for night series of scenes that I found. Did you notice how like the top half, the top frame of the film at this point was awfully blue and awfully dark? Like they put this filter over the lens to kind of dim down what was above it and. Like the, the brightness of the sky and it just felt like a bit much to me.

Craig: I don’t, I don’t think I was play paying that close attention. Yeah. I mean, and, and like you said, it’s really like the last 10, 15 minutes where things really amp up and get crazy and this is where it begins. ’cause there’s like this big showdown. But I also, this is odd to me because Frank. Gets there. He sees Raglin coming out and Raglin says K’s up there with the children, the children of her rage.

I’ll get to that in a second. Mm-hmm. But he’s like, he’s like, if you go up there and try to take her, they’ll kill her. And then he explains. I don’t know. He had already, he says something like, Candy’s safe with them for now, because she’s basically one of them. And the dad’s like, what are you talking about?

And he’s like, they’re Nola’s children. They’re the children of her rage. Okay? 

Todd: Mm-hmm. 

Craig: And then the, the part that I don’t understand is at this point, it almost what. Was the desired outcome for Raglin, right? Because at this point it seems like he turns into a good guy. Like I’ll help you. In fact, I thought that he was messing with him.

I thought that it was a trick. 

Todd: Oh 

Craig: yeah. I thought he was saying you have to go in there. He says you have to go in there and placate Nola. Because she has to remain calm, because if she gets upset, then the brood is going to get upset and then it’ll be dangerous and they’ll kill us all or whatever. He’s like, so go in there and while you’re in there placating her, I will go up and get candy, and that’s what they try to do, but things go wrong.

Todd: Yeah, 

Craig: but ultimate, ultimately, I don’t think that Raglin was trying to trick. Frank. So why all of a sudden now, like, has it just gone too far now? I don’t, I don’t get it. Yeah, 

Todd: I think so. I think it’s, again, it’s that classic mad scientist thing where the, the experiment with that showed so much promise, you know, he’s on the verge of this breakthrough, this incredible medical miracle, but then it gets out of hand and he realizes it’s gone too far and he’s gotta kill it.

You know? I thought it was interesting that he mentioned that when she released her rage at her parents during the therapy, then they went out to kill them. It’s almost like she can also control these children through her rage, or they, they do her bidding in a way. 

Craig: I don’t, but I don’t think that she is, I don’t think that she’s doing it consciously.

Todd: No, she’s not. 

Craig: I don’t even think that she’s aware 

Todd: No. 

Craig: That it’s happening. There’s one point where she says that she had a dream, maybe that Ruth was out of the way or something, or whoever the, the teacher lady was, and she did do the whole psychobabble thing. Psychodrama with Raglan, with him as Ruth also.

So everybody that she did that thing with Raglan with. Ended up dead. 

Todd: Right. 

Craig: Except for the daughter, but the daughter’s now in peril too. Oh, but man, this is where Cronenberg gets real Cronenberg. 

Todd: He sure does. 

Craig: When Frank goes in and this, I, I, I feel like this is the first part where I realized she has been in that bed the whole time and she’s, it’s, it’s low to the floor and she’s sitting in it kind of pooled in the sheets and in her white.

Gown it all. It reminds me of like. The princess and the never ending story. Just like a Oh yeah, like a, a a like a princess on a white princess bed. 

Todd: Ah, yeah. 

Craig: And like I said, she’s lit from the top. I think that’s intentional. I think that that, you know, she is kind of the queen bee. Mm-hmm. I think this, this is kind of her, not throne, but her, her princess bed.

Todd: Yeah, I agree with you. 

Craig: But anyway, she, uh, he goes in there and talks to her and they have a talk. 

Todd: They do. They have quite a talk. It’s, it’s a long talk. It’s a lot of back and forth. It’s kind of a tug of war, and I don’t even remember all the content. I mean, at the same time, Raglin is sneaking around in the Broods layer, which is a bunch of bunk beds that somebody had to build bunk beds for these kids.

Think about that for a minute. It’s like a little summer camp in there that he’s created. I don’t, again, I don’t know what he was planning to do with all these kids. I don’t know if he’s just gonna hide them or what, but there they are. And as he’s talking to her. You know, I think there’s a lot of accusation and stuff.

She starts to get more heightened and upset. Do you remember the content of, of their argument? It’s just melodrama, right? 

Craig: Yeah, it’s just melodrama. He’s saying that, you know, he wants their family to be together and she, I, I do think that she’s unhinged. 

Todd: Sure. 

Craig: So she does. She’s like, she, you’re lying. Uh, but at some point, I don’t remember.

I think she exposes herself in a moment of vulnerability. Like she thinks that he’s going to accept her, or maybe it’s the opposite. Maybe she’s showing him what she’s become to show, you know, this will never work or whatever. Because she eventually opens her gown to expose her torso, which at first I thought was covered in the same sores that we saw in the guy before.

But it’s not, it’s little. Ugh. Like, 

Todd: ugh, 

Craig: big Sacky, warts, and one of them down by her. No-no. Is like a big, it’s like a uterus outside of her body. 

Todd: Yeah. It’s like a giant uterus. Mm-hmm. 

Craig: If, if I understand correctly, all those small ones. Will eventually become that. I think that she’s birthing out these kids on the reg.

Todd: Yeah, exactly. And, and then I, I, 

Craig: this one, this one happens to be ready, apparently. 

Todd: Maybe. Yeah. I, she reaches down and bites into the sack. So that it bursts open and it’s bloody inside. It’s, it’s all just blood. 

Craig: It’s disgusting. 

Todd: She pulls out this fetus and then she just starts licking it. 

Craig: Oh my God.

Disgusting. 

Todd: Like a, is this like reminiscent of a cat licking her kitten after it’s born or something? 

Craig: Yes. 

Todd: And it was apparently Edgar’s idea. It wasn’t in the script. It was her idea that she would just lick the hell out of this thing with so smearing blood all over her face and he just watches and, I mean, all you can do is watch when this is going down, she’s nuts.

And it’s gross. It’s typical cronenberg body horror. Very gross. 

Craig: It looks really good. The, the, the effects look. I mean, it’s disgusting. 

Todd: Yeah, 

Craig: it looks great, but it is just disgusting. 

Todd: You know? I think this is one of these cases of where she’s been done wrong. You know? She’s a victim in this. She’s been a victim, and then I think she’s been exploited.

You know this doctor? 

Craig: Yeah. 

Todd: I think when she came to him for the therapy, it just so happened that she had this special gift in a way, right. That she was born with. Because her mother alludes to the fact, like you said earlier, that when she was a girl and she would get angry and sometimes at night she would wake up and she’d have all these sores all over her.

She’s special. And so, you know, the doctor has, has figured out that this is really gonna help improve his therapy. He’s birthing these rage children. That’s super interesting. But he’s gotta keep it quiet so he can study it. And then after enough rage, children get born and you know, costs a lot of money to feed all those mouths.

You know, I don’t know if you’ve taken care of kids before, but it’s a pain in the ass. He’s gotta finish his second book, whatever. And so he’s hiding it all until he can’t hide it anymore because it turns out that her rage sends them out to do things. So that’s really what’s going on here. And so, like I say, you come back to this and you realize she’s a victim here too.

So, I mean, there’s no real bad guy in this. I suppose maybe the doctor in a way. Uh, but uh, ultimately it’s just this manifestation of all this trauma. That has happened to them in their divorce and their family, and it, it’s, it’s all falling apart and stoic. Smart. Deliberate Frank. Eventually he is like, I’m gonna kill you.

I’m gonna kill you. And 

Craig: well, it’s because he is disgusted by what he sees as she’s licking this baby clean 

Todd: for sure. 

Craig: And she sees that he’s disgusted and she’s like, oh my God, I repulse you. We could never be together. You’re gonna try to take candy away from me, but. I’ll kill her before I let you take her away from me.

And, and she’s getting all angry. And so Raglin, who is up in the bunk room with all the weirdos all, all the weirdos get all agitated and start attacking him. He pushes Kandy out the room or something and I think she locks herself behind a door and they kill him. And that’s why Frank is trying to kill, I guess he kind of has to kill Nola.

Because it’s her or Kandy. 

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: At least that’s what he thinks. That’s what Nola has said, basically. And so he does, he. Kills her. 

Todd: It, it’s kind of like the boss monster in a video game. As soon as he kills her, suddenly all of the little minions are dead too. So that kind of solves everything. But you know, it all does.

Sort of beg the practical question. If it was so easy for Raglan to just sneak into that room with the kids and grab candy, why didn’t they just do that instead of. Confronting and approaching this woman and risk enraging her instead of calming her. How would you think that this ex-husband, I mean obviously they’re divorced for a reason.

Going in there and seeing her for the very first time and how many months, you know, that she’s been in there is gonna soothe her? 

Craig: Yeah. You 

Todd: know, I don’t get it. But yeah, I don’t think it things, things definitely don’t go to plan anyway. He does though, I guess. No, you’re right. He does some of the content of that is him getting down on his knees Right.

And begging for her to come back. So he does put an effort in to kind of follow the plan and she’s just not having it. So it just was a bad idea. 

Craig: Yeah. And, and Kandy having been. Nearly attacked and killed by the brood. She had been behind a door, but they were beating it down and grabbing her and, and pawing at her.

And she was screaming, you know, now they’ve dropped dead. But having been through all that, she’s now catatonic. So Frank picks her up and carries her out to the car and they drive away. And I knew this was gonna be the end, but the camera slow pants down to her forearm and you see two little like. Mole type growths.

Suggesting again, like you said, that uh, this trauma is passed down. 

Todd: It’s really pretty sad. I mean, when you think about it’s really sad. 

Craig: Yeah, I, I, I guess. Well, and she has, I mean, if whatever happened to Nola was a result of her own trauma, now it’s happening to the daughter because she’s been through trauma also, and, and perhaps absent the trauma, it wouldn’t manifest, but right.

It keeps, it keeps repeating itself. Anyway, I don’t know. I found the movie very weird. I, I, I can’t even really say I liked it. It was all right. And I, I like, I thought that it was absolutely made, 

Todd: yeah. 

Craig: The end was gross and the practical effects looks fantastic. Eggers is beautiful and I think did a really, you know, she was compelling and 

Todd: yes, 

Craig: like you said, she shot it in what, like just a few days or whatever and Yeah, I have no idea how much screen time she has, but it’s just all closeup.

Beauty shots, but, but she does good acting. I mean, she seems crazy. 

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: But, but she’s also, she’s also sympathetic. Like you feel bad for her. 

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: She didn’t want to be this way. She, you know, she didn’t do anything wrong. She’s in a bad situation too, but she is in fact crazy. And, and she, and she plays it well.

She plays it very well. 

Todd: I mean, yeah. I mean, out of sensitivity for people who go through trauma, we’re, we’re using shorthand, right? It, it’s a movie. 

Craig: Right, right. 

Todd: You know, so when we say crazy, we’re, we’re not trying to diminish or whatever these real psychological problems at all. It, it’s a movie we’re talking about at movie terms, but you’re right, and, and she plays this crazy.

I think really sympathetically, like you said, and for a horror movie, very realistically, you take a big risk when you’re doing a film like this that your actors can really pull off something that feels human and not just heightened and Hollywood, and I feel like this. Right. Right. Felt human. All the act I, I concur with you.

The acting in this was, I think, just great. Even though it’s melodramatic. I, I didn’t laugh at it. I didn’t roll my eyes at it. I was really involved in their story. I was a little bored, to be honest, because it just didn’t move as fast as I’d wanted. Knowing I was watching this horror movie, I was really kind of also wanting to get to some, some scary stuff, you know?

And that was a little, a few and far between. So I think it had some pacing issues for your typical horror fan, but that doesn’t. Make it a bad movie. It doesn’t even mean it’s, no, it’s wrong. You know? It’s just that kind of film. Yeah. You gotta be in the mood for some, some real drama here with some horror elements thrown in that I think is deep.

You know, I think it’s got this deep message. I think it’s well written. I just could, I recommend it to, I’d have to be careful who I recommended it to because it’s, it’s not fast paced. It’s, it’s not thrilling. Mm-hmm. Uh. As, as horror movies, you know, could be, and as, as some of Oth David Cronenberg’s, other movies tend to be, and it’s not even as weird as some of his other films are like, you know, it’s a movie like video drum.

It’s just surreal and crazy and you just, this is not like that, you know? It’s like he’s building to something like that. He’d only done I think, a. Few movies before this, but really did get some acclaim for these early films that he did. And he really sort of started to embrace his style, I think, and plow on forward and be more bold and let the horror elements in a little more.

And you know, in a way like, uh, who’s the other guy we just talked about who did erase her head? You know David Lynch? 

Clip: Yes. 

Todd: Just really like to dabble in the surreal. And for that, his movies are unique. I really liked that about them. Unique and human. And Samantha Egger was a, in this case, really good at playing that in this role, and I mm-hmm.

And I, and I was really impressed with it. It’s a tough actress who can be in closeup for that long and maintain this degree of, of sympathy and humanity in, in her face. That’s 

Craig: right. 

Todd: I was really impressed. Well, thank you guys so much for listening. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it with a friend.

Uh, we just came outta the Halloween season and we’re coming up close to Christmas. I don’t know if you know of any Thanksgiving movies we could do. Please send them our way. Those are fewer and further between than the Christmas ones. But either suggestions, we would take, uh, just find us online@chainsawhorror.com.

You can leave us a comment on there. We’ll see them no matter what page you leave them on. We, uh, also have our socials out there. Just search two guys in a Chainsaw podcast. Any one of those ways is a good way to reach out to us as well as consider joining our Patreon, patreon.com/chainsaw podcast gets you unedited.

Uh, phone calls that lead to these episodes gets you mini sos little write-ups that we do a book club behind the scenes. Direct conversation with us, just five bucks a month. patreon.com/chainsaw podcast. Until next time, I’m Todd. 

Craig: And I’m Craig 

Todd: With Two Guys and a Chainsaw.