crispin glover willard

Special thanks goes out to Loyal Patrons Neil and Jordan for requesting this week’s 2003 remake of the 1971 film “Willard”, which we probably would never have gotten to otherwise. We took this opportunity to discuss both films, and came out enjoying them way more than we expected. Crispin Glover is his typical quirky self as a mousey guy who loves rats. And then there’s that fantastic tune by Michael Jackson that is tangentially related to the original film. Listen up and hear all about it!

Also enjoy the totally wacked out “Ben” cover below!

willard poster
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Automatic Transcript


Todd: Hello and welcome to another episode of Two Guys and a Chainsaw. I’m Todd.

Craig: And I’m Craig.

Todd: Well, we are knee deep in our month of remakes. As you remember, we posed to our patrons with the month what they like, and they settled on a month of remakes. And amidst that discussion on there, we got some requests. Patrons Neil and Jordan both really wanted us to do Willard. 

Craig: Uhhuh. Which is not one. When we thought about doing this, I came up with a whole long list and you did too. Like we both had a list of ones that we might do. Mm-hmm. and I was worried about trimming them down cuz there were so many that we wanted to do.

And then two people were like, do Willard . Okay. I, I mean, that’s not one that I would’ve thought of at all, but that’s the beauty of Patreon because, I’m so glad that, uh, we did this one. I’m really excited to talk about it. Yeah, me 

Todd: too. In fact, I probably would have just said, let’s do the original Uhhuh at some point in our podcast because it, it’s, it pops into my head every now and then, and I had never seen it, the original or the newest one, um, until now.

And so here we are. Uh, Willard was originally released in 1971, and it was a movie based on a book called Rat Man’s Diaries, Uhhuh , which is appropriate, that used, that was going to be the name. But then they settled on Willard, which I, in my youth always thought was the name of the. Rat , it turns out it’s the name of the guy.

And so what we have here, especially with the original, is sort of a character study in a way. Like Martin I think was a character study and you know, some of the movies we’ve watched seem to be more about an unhinged person and the fascination of, you know, kind of getting into their brain and seeing what makes them tick and kind of what turns them evil or what makes them do bad things.

So, uh, this movie, when it came out, was a surprise hit. It ended up with as the 12th highest grossing release of the year. It was a fairly low-budget movie. It had Ernest Borgnine, I think was the biggest star Uhhuh in that film, which I always loved seeing . He was good. Did you watch the original? I did Didn.


Craig: I did. I just didn’t know if you, uh, had gotten around to it or not. No. Yeah, I watched the original cause I had never seen it either. And I also watched Ben like . Oh, you 

Todd: watched Ben Uhhuh that I didn’t do. You were way more thorough than me, . Well, it’s because 

Craig: watching the, like 10 minutes into the original, I was like, I love this

Todd: Right. I did too. I 

Craig: really was into it. Like I was 

Todd: too, it, it was, 

Craig: I don’t, I don’t even know how to describe it. It was very seventies. Like it had the total seventies aesthetic and the music, but it was also really bright. Yeah. Whereas this remake that we’re gonna be talking about in a second is all dark.

Everything’s dark in, in the original one. It’s bright and cheery through most of the movie. It really doesn’t feel like a horror movie. At all. No. Ultimately, like you were talking about character studies in the original Willard pretty much just seems like kind of a normal guy. . 

Todd: He does, you know, he’s very sympathetic, I think.

Mm-hmm. in the original and I mean, and, and what I really liked about the original is I, it felt real to me, you know? Yeah. Almost everything about now there was a little bit of like over the topness with like the mother and her friends. Sure. However, I don’t mind that because it, it was pressing point, the, the point home that this guy has really just been this stunted guy, right.

You go to like I m DB and Wikipedia and they talk about this movie and Bruce Davison stars, his social misfit Willard styles, uh, I wouldn’t call him a social misfit. No. He just seems like a lonely guy who’s never gotten out of the shadow of his mother and his father. And doesn’t really particularly have any great ambitions.

He just kind of wants to do his thing and he’s not even happy about the thing he’s doing. But how many of us are like that? You know, , right? Just like, like he was totally relatable. Yeah. And then he had all this extra sympathy because he had this ailing mother, or at least this mother who pretended she was ailing.

I, I, I’m not even sure, really. You know, she kind of gave me the whole, that next door neighbor in Pollyanna kind of feeling. Remember the woman who’s always complaining about how she’s sick? Yeah. . Yeah. 

Craig: I, I learned something. Did you know that that actress, I we’re gonna have to be careful not to do a whole episode on the original.

The original, right. Cause I would like to, but, uh, the mom that was the bride of Frankenstein, did you know? Oh God no. Yes. I didn’t know that. Yeah. And uh, what I learned was not only did that actress play the iconic bride of Frankenstein, but the same actress was also Katie Nana in Mary Poppins. , like the grouchy Nanny.

Todd: Yes. Oh my gosh. crazy. I never, never Wow. . Well, okay, so there was more than one famous actor in that movie. Well, you know, she, okay, so she played that character, which can come across as a bit stereotypical and archetypal. But then, you know, she has these friends who just come in and you can tell they’re like leeches.

It seems like all of her friends as boisterous and whatever they are, are all kind of angling for the, for. Peace of the fortune, even though the movie never really comes right out and says it. That’s just a vibe I got. Yeah, 

Craig: I mean, they were campy. Fortunately they weren’t in it very much. No. The thing that, uh, I liked about the original was like he was just kind of lonely and bored, and that’s how the rats happened.

And that felt real too. Like his mom’s like, oh, there are rats in the garden. Get rid of ’em. And he kind of tries to, like, there’s a really intense scene where he traps them and is gonna drown ’em. And it’s so tense because, uh, like you see the water raising in these poor little baby rats are like squealing in things and Yeah, just, just like we, the audience are uncomfortable, so is he.

And he rescues them at the last minute and then they’re his friends and they’re just his friends throughout the rest of the movie. And that’s what I liked about the original and this new one in my mind. I think when I saw this, um, on the shelves. When I was a kid, I thought that it was like an evil rats movie.

Like, like, yeah, me too. The rats were bad and they were, you know, attacking and killing people. That’s really not the case. They’re just rats. I, in both movies. Yeah. They’re just rats. And especially in, in the first movie, he eventually just realizes that he’s overwhelmed with rats. , like, oh shit. Too many rats.


And, and that’s kind of, it’s kind of the same in the second one too, when they just, you know, it starts out as kind of a fun hobby. , right. But as rats will do, they multiply super quickly and it happens in the second one too. Now, in both, also they do train the rat. To do stuff. Yes. But even that doesn’t really seem all that unrealistic.

It’s a little bit more heightened I think in the second one. Yes. And some of that may have to do with the use of cgi and so, you know, they’re using enormous hoards of rats. I, I actually thought the original was really impressive for using almost exclusively live rats and it looked great. 

Todd: Yeah. To me there was a bit of a, of a question.

It did make me wonder if there was something written in the script or obviously in the book that just kind of got left out a movie for time reasons. It just seems like suddenly Willard can order the rats around. Yeah. There’s a gap here. We don’t really know how he trained these rats. We just know now he’s able to tell.

Tear it up or, you know, go or whatever. And, and they’ll do that in the second movie. There’s a whole sequence then that fills in that gap for us, where he’s like, almost maniacally, like, like now feed, go tear it up. He’s like, lined up tires and sh told the, you know, shown them how to do it and all that. And so, uh, there’s a montage sequence there, which is I think helpful, but didn’t feel absolutely necessary in the first movie.

Honestly, they are just rats. Like what can they do? They chew through stuff. Uhhuh, . 

Craig: Well, what can they do? Rats are crazy. They smoke . Like they never, oh my gosh. Rats, first of all are very intelligent and they’re relentless. Like they do, they multiply at an insane rate and mm-hmm. , they have to chew like they have to because their, their teeth never stop growing.

Right. And if they don’t chew, they’ll starve to death cuz they won’t be able to eat. So they have to chew. And so if you’ve, I mean, literally in the second movie, it’s suggested in the first one, but more so in the second movie, they are gonna literal. Eat this house down. Yeah. . Exactly. That’s, that’s not un unreal.

It’s not unrealistic. If there were really those bazillions of rats in there Yeah, they would, they would completely, totally destroy a house. Absolutely. No question. 

Todd: And those teeth are strong. They can chew through wire, they can chew through, I mean like metal. Well, they’re, they’re well known for being able to do that.

Now, I don’t know if they can chew through a solid wooden door as fast as the rats in these movies do. Probably not , but the fact that they can do it, absolutely it can happen. And I don’t know, you get a swarm of them together. Really hell bent on making a hole in that door. Well, maybe for the movie’s purpose, you know, I can buy it.

Craig: The thing about the first movie is that I found it to be very quaint. Mm-hmm. , and, and I liked that a lot. It felt like a th well, it’s not a throwback because it was made in the seventies, but it, it had su it so had that early seventies 

Todd: aesthetic, well, honestly, even like a sixties aesthetic really. I thought Fair.

You know, it was 1971, so it’s kind of bridging the decades. . Yeah. It did feel to me like Mary Poppins could have come out a couple years before this. Yeah. , you 

Craig: know, but Right. But Willard w, blonde haired, blue-eyed, I think. I don’t know. Blonde haired. Mm, good looking guy. What’s the name of the actor who played him?

He still works all the time. Bruce Davidson. I can’t pinpoint one thing that he’s in You. I feel like anymore, anytime I see him, he kind of plays like the smarmy older guy, maybe. Kind of a drunk or something. 

Todd: Yeah, I think in the original X-Men movie or maybe X and also That’s right, X two. Yeah. He was, uh, he was in that for 

Craig: sure.

Yeah. He was like the politician who was trying to. Kill all the X-men or 

Todd: whatever. Yeah. Constantly working this 

Craig: guy. Yeah. All the time. Uh, fun fact, in the remake, there are tons of photographs of Willard’s deceased father everywhere, and they’re all of that actor, uh, Bruce Davis. Yeah, that’s an interesting touch.

I loved it. . Um, but anyway, the first movie is cute and, and quaint and really Willard. Okay. So he has a mean boss and. , something happens that gets him really worked up about his boss, and he does have the rats attack the boss. That’s kind of it. Then his only, his only real sin beyond murder, I suppose , is that he realizes that the rats are overtaking the house and he can’t have that.

So he, he tries to kill all the rats and they turn on him and kill him. The ends. That’s the end of that movie. This, and, and so it’s you. , yes, he ordered the rats to kill one person, but beyond that, they weren’t really guilty of anything except doing what rats do. And yeah, but, and then he gets killed, but only because he was trying to kill them.

So it doesn’t, seeing the rats up close and all of that, there’s definitely suspense, but it doesn’t really feel like a horror 

Todd: movie. It’s not that scary. No, I mean, you know, the rats aren’t terrifying. now there’s some awesome closeups of Ben . Yeah, definitely. In the first movie that had me laughing out loud in delight, they managed to get a closeup of this rat, you know, up on a shelf up high, looking down at Willard a couple times with his eyes narrowed and he , he looks about as.

As disappointed and angry as a rat could probably look . I loved it. Those were 

Craig: great and I love the story too, but I feel like we can save that because even though the producers of the 2003 version, they, they refused to refer to this movie as a remake. They said that it was a reworking of the themes from the original with a stronger focus on suspense.

No, this is a straight up remake. It’s same. This is straight story. This. It’s the same story, 

Todd: just 

Craig: same characters. Tweaked a little bit, just tweaked a little bit. But what I liked about it is that it’s tweaked more to the dark. The the first movie I said before is bright and sunny. Most of the time, everything in the 2003 version is dark and, uh, dingy.

Everything. Yes. The, the house that he lives in, the place where he works, uh, everything is drab. And, and so it just has a much darker tone from the get-go, from the opening credits, which I love. They’re like these old timey stop motion credits and there’s like a stop motion skeleton rat. Awesome. It, it, it gave me a feel like, like a Tim Burton type movie.

Like a Tim Burton or like an EC comics kind of vibe. Mm, yeah. Yeah. Um, I, I loved it, but everything’s darker, but it tells basically the same story, which we can get into. But I think what makes this movie work. is Crisp and Glover. Crisp. And Glover is so weird and yes, I 

Todd: love him. Period. Yeah. Like we’re not even like, forget about the movie and his acting.

He’s a weird 

Craig: God, period. No, he’s just weird. He’s a weird guy in his life. He is weird in the roles that he chooses and the way that he portrays them, and I love it. It works for this. Oh, I absolutely love him in this movie because his acting style is just so unique that I don’t, I can’t imagine it working on anybody else, but he plays it.

He plays such interesting oddballs, but in such an honest way, like Willard in this movie as opposed to in the first one is weird. Yeah. He is somebody that would be awkward in social situations and is, he’s very much an oddball. He looks strange, he dresses not weird, but like not necessarily appropriate to his age or the time.

I think most of the time, uh, his boss comments at one point that he’s just wearing his dad’s old suits that don’t even fit him and that’s true. Um, but he’s just an oddball and Crispin Glover plays it so well. And even though he’s totally unhinged, kind of, pretty much from the beginning, even though it only intensifies, he’s also sympathetic.

I was totally sympathetic for this guy and felt bad for him. Yeah. 

Todd: I have to say I wasn’t, and maybe, maybe it’s because my feelings were too colored by the first movie and how much I enjoyed it. That this one being going in such a different direction for me, you know, it’s a choice, right? The filmmakers can make a choice.

They can and do and will and good for them try something different. Otherwise, why remake a movie? And so they, like you said, they sort of deliberately went this way where he’s unhinged from the beginning. This guy, it could have been anything, could have been spiders, it could have been whatever, like he was gonna find something to latch onto and perhaps kill somebody with.

And he has, he gets utter delight out of it at, at points in the movie where he’s seems gleeful about the power that he has with these rats that he doesn’t get. Elsewhere in his life, right? Mm-hmm. . But he, he always, even from the beginning, seems to be this guy who’s gonna go that way. There’s gonna be something that trips him that he’s gonna take and use to his advantage.

And so for me, actually, I didn’t have a lot of sympathy for him at first. Look, I mean, of course like his, he had a shitty situation even worse, really? Because honestly, like take the boss for example, in the first movie, his boss, particularly by today’s standards, is a douchey guy. , yeah. But kind of charmingly, douchey, you know, especially in that way that we look back on like, I don’t know, the Mad Men era and these guys where, you know, they were messing around with their secretaries and were doing stuff, but you know, they always had a smile on their face and they’re trying to kind of like project this aura of like, don’t get me wrong, I didn’t like him.

Right. But, At least for a while, he kind of gives the impression that he’s at least trying to work with Willard. You know, he’s sort of like tolerating him, but he’s also. Not in his face and, and just demeaning him all the time, which is what the boss in this, in the new movie does. Like the boss in the new movie is played by, uh, what’s his name?

R e 

Craig: Emry. . Oh yeah. Famous from, uh, full metal jacket. Metal jacket as a drill sergeant. And I, if I remember correctly, I didn’t look this up, but I think that he got that role because he was a drill sergeant. Mm-hmm. . So like . 

Todd: That’s right, that’s right. . And he’s played mostly drill sergeants in movies ever since

Craig: Well, in those types of roles, I mean, he’s a, he’s a really, uh, intimidating guy 

Todd: and he’s good at it. Yeah. But man, he is over the top mean intimidating bullying toward Willard, almost like he’s just got it out for this guy for reasons that at some point, I, I don’t even really get, you know, except he just likes to be a douche to people.

And Willard’s an easy target. 

Craig: Yeah. He’s gleeful about it. Yeah. I, oh, I agree. But that’s the thing. I think everything Willard in this movie is what they tried to tell us. He was in the old one, but he wasn’t it like, right. Um, . So I fe and don’t get me wrong, I really enjoyed them both, but I, I feel like the, the themes and the tone of the first one, were at a solid six and a half, seven.

And they just cranked this one up to 11. Like, yeah, let’s just go for it. Let’s just make it dark and weird. , I just really dug it, , and I did feel for Willard. In part, I’m gonna regret saying this because I know people kind of like him. You know, I work in a high school for Pete’s sake. Teenagers go through really, really awkward phases sometimes.

And to see them struggle in social environments, is it, you know, it affects me. And so I, I see this guy who he’s just trying to go about his life and he’s trying to do everything right. You know, he is got this ailing mother who is domineering and, and a little bit crazy and, but he’s doing everything that he can to be kind to her and care for her.

And he, you know, he takes her criticism like, God, what does she say? She says something awful to him. What an awful name. Well, If you had a strong name that Frank Martin wouldn’t push you around, or maybe you would’ve found a girlfriend if you had a more handsome name. Mark Kyle Clark

from now on on Clock. And then for the rest of the movie, she calls him Matt . Yeah, . 

Todd: That’s crazy, right? What 

Craig: a shitty thing to say to somebody. Yeah. And and you see in his face that it hits him. And I just, yeah, as, as weird as Chris Ben Glover is, and he is, I do think that he’s a good actor and I could see these things in his face.

So and so he has to put up with that. He has to put up with this abusive guy at work and. . You know, again, in all fairness, he is late all the time. His boss has legitimate complaints, I suppose, but he’s such a jerk about it, and, and Willard keeps trying to explain like, I, I’m sure you’re sick of this, uh, excuse, but my mother really is sick and the bosses doesn’t care.

The only reason that he’s even still working there is because apparently this boss, Willard’s dad used to own this company, whatever it is, and somehow Willard’s current boss, Swindled him out of it, bought him out or something. But in the contract, a stipulation of the contract was that he had to allow Willard to work there.

He couldn’t fire Willard. Um, so that’s the only reason he was even working there. But I feel like that’s kind of where the animus comes from too, like. Uh, the boss resents him, so, and he can’t fire him, so he is just gonna treat him as terribly as he possibly can. 

Todd: Well, I think it’s interesting how the things that kind of come out over time in the first movie that are, you know, implied and then spoken of again in different contexts and then, you know, so that it takes time for the whole picture to come forward.

Really gets out right in the. right. In this movie. Like, we immediately meet up with her mom, not his mom. Not only is she old and frail, but she, she looks scary that she is, yeah. She’s almost just as creepy. , you know? Um, she reminded me of the, um, of the sister from Pet Cemetery, Uhhuh I was thinking of when I watched it.

But there’s that, and then, you know, he goes to work and he’s screaming at him almost. He can barely get a word out. And when he goes into his office and he’s, you know, they have this dialogue that you’re talking about, Mr. Martin immediately jumps into, you know, maybe it’s time you just get a rest home for your mom, sell the house.

Maybe I’ll even tear it down and build a p build some nice apartments on it, which is something that is kind of a scheme that comes out over time. Mm-hmm. , um, in the original movie, which I thought was a little more, I don’t know, I just like appreciate the subtlety and the realism of, of that 

Craig: approach.

Well, in, in both movies, maybe you can explain this to me in both movies, I didn’t understand why the boss wanted to get his hands on the house so badly. 

Todd: I don’t either. I think it was a total device. Yeah. I couldn’t figure it out. I just felt he’s just one more person trying to take advantage of this kid.

Right. Uh, is how I felt. Um, just like the parents. But in this movie, because it’s the only one, it and it just, he jumps to it so quickly, it’s just even harder to figure out and swallow. But then he, he very quickly escalates into anger, which is something that the boss in the first movie never really quite does.

Right. And, and is just screaming at him like, you’re, like, basically you’re the reason, you know, you’re, you’re slow at getting these reports done and that slows down the entire business operation. You’ll catch up. All 

Craig: right, asshole. And you’ll catch up on your own damn time. There’s one thing that you will never understand.

Willard business as a rat race promise or no promise, I will not allow myself to be devoured by all of those other rats cause of you. Loved it. Loved it. 

Todd: That line was so inspired, . 

Craig: It was great. And, and, uh, that, that guy, Ari Emry, he’s good at what he does. Um, he is, and he’s an intimidating guy. Uh, I guess Crisp and Glover just found those.

Rantings hilarious. And, um, would just laugh and laugh, which I, I guess I can see. I mean, if you’re in the space, like I, I can see how that could be funny, but Ooh, it’s intimidating, uh, in the movie and y yeah, I mean, full metal jacket. But he was also the evil sheriff in the, uh, Texas chainsaw massacre remakes from the early aughts.

And he was really scary in that too. But anyway, it, as happens in the first movie, the. Uh, in the first movie, there are rats in the garden in this movie, there’re in the basement. And, um, at first, you know, there’s a whole montage of Willard, you know, going to the grocery store and, and figuring out, you know, how he wants to try to capture these rats.

And, uh, I think that they’re trying to project his humanity here. Yeah. Um, it seems like that he, he doesn’t want to hurt them. He just wants them gone. Um, but the humane traps are all sold out. So ultimately he has to buy these rat traps. So he buys, uh, these huge industrial rat traps and sets them, and then overnight they all go off.

But none of them trap any rats, which. , I’m not sure I understand. . 

Todd: Yeah, . They’re supposed to be projected as very intelligent rats from the get-go, 

Craig: I guess. I guess. Well, but then, but then he sets glue traps in the middle of the night. He hears screaming, which if you set glue traps, you will, because they’re cruel.

They’re, they’re. They’re terrible. Please don’t use glue traps. Um, if, if you’re gonna use kill traps, at least use the ones that kill them quickly. Glue traps are torturous and, and they either starve to death or you have to find them and kill them yourself, which is terrible. Um, he hears this screaming and he goes down and there’s this little, it’s not little at all.

It, it’s pretty big. But compared to the other rats, it’s like a baby. This white rat, uh, trapped and he feels bad for it. So he takes it upstairs and he gets some cooking oil and he frees it. And then I thought this was so sweet, and this doesn’t really happen. In the first one while when he grabs the rat, he sees other rats including another white rat watching him from a grate.

And once he has this little one freed, he takes it back down and he puts it at that grate. It’s family was mm-hmm. . And, and the little rat goes with them and he turns around so dejected and sad and starts walking back upstairs and then he hear, hears a squeak and he turns back around and the little white rat is there waiting for him.

And from that point on, That’s his best friend and he names it Socrates. And I love the way that Crispen Glover says Socrates . But it’s cute. And then they’re like best friends. And I want this to now be a buddy movie about Willard and Socrates and the wacky hijinks that they get into 

Todd: going on adventures.

Yeah. . 

Craig: I want him to put Socrates in a little hat. Maybe like a, like a Hawaiian shirt. 

Todd: You want like a Saturday morning animated cartoon series with spin off? Yes. Willard the, yeah. 

Craig: Uhhuh . That’s what I want. But that’s not where it goes . 

Todd: No, it’s not where it goes. Well, you know, another thing that the movie, uh, the new movie I think did really well.

Of course, again, this is another one of the different choices it makes, is it makes off this other rat named Ben almost to be kind of sinister from the very beginning. And the reason is because Willard’s kind of pushing it aside. Uh, to make great for so in 

Craig: favor. Right. Which is different than the first movie, which I found really interesting in the original movie.

He loves them both. Yes. I think that Socrates is his favorite, but he loves them both and he favors them both. And there’s really, I like the angle in this movie that Ben is kind of jilted, and, and kind of, kind of justifiably so like Will is, oh, he is fat Unreasonably mean to him. fat Shamed. This rat is huge.

Todd: This rat is 

Craig: massive. It is like the size of a cat. It’s enormous. Apparently. 

Todd: I went back and I read the Roger Ebert, uh, contemporary and his review of this, and uh, he did, he reviewed both this and the old movie. He didn’t like either of them particularly, or he, you know, he gave them each like two, two and a half stars.

But, uh, he says, which as an aside, Ben, the, the suppo, the rat might, from what I’ve found on the internet, might not have actually been played by an, an actual rat at some other animal. I don’t think that’s true, but there was a rumor going around, but it is actually a rat. Yeah, that can get that big, 

Craig: they can get bigger than that.

I read they can get like 17 inches from the base of the tail to their nose. That’s crazy. And then their tails can be at least that long also. I know. And they can get up to six pounds. That is Well this 

Todd: thing huge this, this thing’s the size of a kitten. I mean it is, oh, at least 

Craig: it’s big . Oh, it’s bigger than a kitten.

It’s like a fat puppy. It’s huge. . Um, and, and Crisp and Glover handles it a lot. And he handles the other, uh, raft. Okay. Two things. One, they wanted Willard to look like a rat. . So they, they, you know, really shadowed his nose to highlight, you know, the, the pointiness of his nose and they, you know, did stuff with his eyes to make his eyes look more beadie or whatever.

And it, it, he does look very rat like, 

Todd: well, you don’t have to go too far to make Kristen Glover look like a 

Craig: rapper. True. That’s globe look like a rat. That’s true. And I don’t know anything about this other than it’s true that Crispin Glover wrote a book called, Rat catching . 

Todd: Yeah. What , I saw that referenced.

I didn’t go down that particular rabbit hole, but I was kind of hoping you would’ve . No, I 

Craig: didn’t. I wish I would’ve too. Like, is there a series? Like does he catch other types of animals? Why is he catching them? I don’t un but I thought that was just an interesting tidbit. Uh uh, again, I will contend that this movie, it rides on the shoulder of Crisp and Glover.

Uh, it has to be because it’s called Willard, you know, it’s his movie and he is by far and away the central character. We, we are with him the whole movie. Yeah. You say you don’t really find him all that sympathetic. I don’t know. I think you at least have to be invested in his story if, if this is gonna work.

And I, I read that they considered other people for it, and I, I thought. . Uh, surely when this movie, when this remake was conceived, they had him in mind because I just didn didn’t think of anybody else. But then I read some of the people that they had in mind. Apparently when this was being written, whoever was writing it was working on another movie with Doug Hutchinson, I’m pretty sure is his name, and was writing with him in mind.

He’s been in a lot. I remember him most from Shawshank Redemption. He was the really, really jerky guard, um, the really mean one. Oh, but. He today? I think, yes, he’s appropriately creepy because he totally killed his career when he married Courtney Staden when she was 15. Do you remember that? 

Todd: Oh, I forgot 

Craig: about that.

Yeah, he was 50 something and she was 15 and they got married. They’re since divorced and, and she now says that she was groomed and so, and I don’t think he works very much anymore, but I could see that he could be creepy. Um, Macaulay Culkin was offered it, and as strange as that sounds, I almost think Macaulay Caulkin pu could pull it off that could’ve worked.

And Joaquin Phoenix and Joaquin Phoenix is a weirdo too, so maybe, maybe he could’ve 

Todd: done it. They all have kind of similar looks too, don’t they? Like kind of, kind of with the pointer noses and sunken eyes and kind of go, can be a little gaunt looking at times. Yeah, we could see 

Craig: that. I, I could see any of them, but I think that, uh, crisp and Glover is great and I like that he’s tall and lanky.

Um, but. Uh, you know, once he befriends these couple of rats and Ben comes second and he just has what, to me, were these heartbreaking moments with Socrates where he says things like, I’ll never let anybody hurt you, or, you’re my best friend. You’re the only friend I’ve ever had. And like, yeah, gosh. . 

Todd: I mean, I thought that was land it on pretty thick, that that was my feeling.

Like I, I just, I felt like he overplayed it. But I think, again, I think that was a choice that the directors of the movie made, cuz the whole movie is kind of overplayed. It’s sort of like the difference between like the Batman TV series and you know, the. Tim Burton Batman movie, you know? Yeah. It’s, it’s that stark of a difference.

Like you said, the, the other was bright and colorful. This is dark and sinister, but it is from the get-go uhhuh, and we’re 30 minutes in and he’s training the rats, and he just seems angry and mean when he’s doing it. You know, in the early, in the first movie, Willard’s feels like delighted. It’s fun. It’s like, oh, it’s like a thing here.

It’s like you can see the wheels turning in his head. Like, I can control them and I’m going to use them to get my revenge, you know, Uhhuh , um, which again, it’s just a choice. It just, it just, it’s a different character. And you’re right, he plays it really strong. But I mean, it’s cartoony as far as I’m concerned.

Yeah. I think it’s overplayed in, in a way that, that at least distanced me from it. And I think that’s just my personal preference. But wouldn’t 

Craig: you say that, is appropriate to the tone of like, everything. Yeah, that’s what I’m 

Todd: saying. Like the house, everything about this movie is like 

Craig: that. The interiors of the house look like an episode of Scooby-Doo.

Like it doesn’t look like a house that anybody lives in. It looks like a Yeah, that’s a creepy, decrepit movie set. . 

Todd: That’s why I said it’s, it’s a clearly a choice. You know, they were going for this style, they’re going for this look. And so I guess what you’re saying is judge it on those merits. I 


Craig: I, I, I don’t know.

I just, which is fair. I, I, uh, I don’t know. I, I, I feel like I’m trying to convince you to like it as much as 

Todd: I do . Well, I liked it. I just, I didn’t like it as much, and I guess, yeah, it, it, you know, the, like I said, the original movie, kind of a character study I was really into that. I really like, I thought it, it had a subtlety that I really liked.

It had a relatability that I really liked. This. I couldn’t relate, you know, there was no subtlety there. It didn’t feel like a character study. It felt like a character in a movie, which is fine. It’s just a very, very different choice. And so it was very jarring for me. . Yeah. To go from one to the other.

That’s true. And, and what we’re talking about here is sympathy. You know, you found him sympathetic. This is just why I didn’t really latch onto him. And so these moments where he was holding him up close and had him in bed on the pillow next to me, he’s staring at, you know, he’s had this rat for like half a day and he’s already saying, I’m never gonna let anything happen.

Craig: know, but he’s saying. It is heavy 

Todd: handed. It’s heavy foreshadowing. Right. You know, it couldn’t be more obvious foreshadowing. Oh, isn’t this guy so pathetic? And you know, it’s just super dramatic. But again, that’s the style of the movie. Right? 

Craig: Right. But the, when the little rat comes back, like when Willard turns a walk and he turns away and he is walking away, so dejected, like it’s close up in his face and he’s so dejected and then he hears the squeak and he turns around before he even grabs the rat and picks him up again.

Tears well up in his eyes. And this, this happens several times. And uh, I just 

Todd: also. This guy is pretty back and forth at times. He just seems like, oh, you should feel sorry for him. But then it’s, he seems to have this temper. He does. He’s just always right on the edge of going off because Right. What after this, uh, he, once he finds out that the rats can chew things and he goes through his little sequence of training them, um, he gets the idea to unleash them on his boss’s new car, which he’s been basically, um, pushing in his face earlier talking about how, oh, I, I drive this fancy car that the company buys me and helps get his clients and things like that.

And so what better way to get revenge than to be ? Pile up two bags, literally two sacks of rats, , Uhhuh, , dump them out, you know, and, uh, have them go into this guy’s garage and chew the tires up. Right. So he does it. And then there’s kind of a tense scene where the guy wakes up and comes downstairs and he has to get away with the rats and he’s running through the backyard.

He makes it onto the street. Okay. And it’s quiet street, but there’s this dog that’s following them. A little 

Craig: yappy dog. Yeah. 

Todd: Just some little yappy dog and he turns and he looks down and is like, you wanna see what’s in the bag? You stupid little dog. And again, he’s got this manic, insane joy on his face at picking this little dog up and sticking in the bag full of rats, which I thought was gonna kill the dog.

I did too. The fact that it doesn’t was a little puzzling. 

Craig: Well, I think that maybe they would have, but again, Willard gets this look on his face, like all of a sudden you’re right in moments. He certainly is manic and, and he is crazy. I, I do think that he’s unhinged, but the adrenaline is pumping because he’s just escaped.

And this little dog is yapping. And I think that in a crazy moment he throws the dog in there. But as he hears the dog start to yelp, he almost comes back to his senses. And you see it on his face. We know that this guy. Is not inhumane, that’s been established before. And he, he opens the bag and takes the dog out, and the dog runs away.

So presumably it’s okay. Which you’re right, is a little weird. I don’t know that that would be true, but I also don’t know that it would be true that you could lay down two carpet bags on the ground and say in, and have 400 rats run into them themselves. Right. , 

Todd: and then, oh, now back out again. Oh, yeah. . 

Craig: I mean, it’s cool.

It’d be cool if you could, but, right. I don’t know. Yeah. So, yeah, so, uh, he, he has him chew up those tires and then, I don’t know, his mom dies at some point. Um, and the rats are becoming a problem and Ben starts getting pushy, like wanting to sleep with them and stuff. And Willard gets, I don’t un I, I, I was a little uncertain.

About this because I didn’t understand why he was so resistant to Ben. Ben is clearly very intelligent, like probably among the more intelligent of the rats. He’s huge and he appears to want to be affectionate. Is it just because Willard is only interested in Socrates? 

Todd: I think that’s what it is. Well, you know, initially he kind of like singles Ben out.

He’s like, oh, you’re big, you can’t squeeze into anything. And he doesn’t let Ben. He’s like, no, you can’t come, you know, for his first little jaunt to slash the tires of the car. He doesn’t wanna let Ben in the bag. He tells Ben, well if I let you in, then like there aren’t gonna be room for like six other rats or whatever, so you have to stay here.

Well, Ben sneaks in there anyway. And then when he gets out he turns, looks at Ben and he is like, well you’re not gonna be able to fit through that. Ha haha. But then Ben ends up chewing a bigger hole in the garage door and gets in after all Uhhuh . So Ben is constantly like asserting himself, trying himself to prove himself , but, but it’s sort of like, what can Ben really understand?

Speech, you know, I mean, again, it’s so on the nose cuz at one point, just like in the first movie, he realizes there are too many freaking rats here. Yeah. And so at the basement, I think he’s walking up the steps and he just kind of turns to the mall and he says to them, Follow Ben? Yeah. He will find a new place for you.

He’ll find a new home for you. Won’t cha Ben. You’re the leader after Socrates. And then he pulls Socrates up and it’s like, you’re not going anywhere. Socrates, you’ll always be with me. I hate everyone but you 

Craig: bed. Yes. Yeah. I hate everyone but you. And then like, after his mom dies and he is mad at the other rats or something, because at this point they’re kind of taking over the whole house.

And one of the things that I liked about this movie that was not true of the first one is that, uh, in this movie, realistically there is rat shit everywhere. . 

Todd: Oh my God. It’s so disgusting. definitely way truer than the first movie, right? 

Craig: Uh, but yeah, he says, after the mom dies, he says to Socrates, Socrates, if you ever died, 

Todd: I,

Craig: you’re the only friend that I’ve ever had. Yes. Oh my God. But he says it was such since sincerity. And of course you and I know that Socrates is gonna die here in about 10 minutes. 

Todd: Well, who wouldn’t, who wouldn’t? Even if this is the first time you watched this movie, right? It is so foreshadowed. It’s cra it’s crazy.

I thought it was a bit much, but, you know, 

Craig: but one of, one of my favorite parts, uh, is at his mom’s funeral. First he’s there by himself and he kind of says goodbye to his mother with Socrates on his shoulder. And then he tells Socrates to go say goodbye to the mother and Socrates crawls down there or whatever.

And then this girl from work, who’s kind of flirting with him or whatever, shows up and they have a moment. But then this trustee guy shows up to tell him that his mom left him penniless, and in fact, he’s in debt and there’s a mortgage on the house, and he’s probably gonna lose the house. And he’s like, why don’t you just, you know, cut your losses, sell the house and start over.

Todd: And he flips the 

Craig: out. He, he flips out. But what he like. Oh my God. I just think that it’s such an emotional performance and you and I have done very limited acting to push, even if you’re just faking it, to push yourself to that level of excitement. Isn’t easy. Yeah. And I just think that he does it really well here and, and he pushes himself to the point where he’s shrieking and crisp, and glove has an interesting, unexpected voice.

Anyway, it’s very mm-hmm. , he’s very kind of soft spoken. The tenor of his voice is higher and pitched than you would expect from somebody of his stature. Why do I have to pay for what things my parents did? How money can help you. Start over. Start over. I’m almost done. Ooh, Willard. Look, you have no choice.

If I have no choice. Why did you even come here? Why did you even bother telling me? You get off of telling people that they have no control over their lives. That I have no money, no home, and it’s not even my fault. Ugh. That just hit me. I’m like, oh my God, I, I totally can get where he’s coming from. Like, 

Todd: do you get off on telling people they have no control over their lives?

In the first movie, he has a similar scene, which I thought was. . I, I was really into, and that’s when one of the mother’s busy body friends, right? Who’s clearly trying to edge. She’s like, oh, one of the last things I, that your mother said to me was to take care of Willard, please. And so like, she’s just letting herself into the house.

Yeah. At one point he catches her trying to steal China . You know, this woman is clearly like under the guise of just being so helpful and so caring and so loving, trying to edge her way in here for whatever reason. And he, he flips out at her and comes down and he says, give me those keys. And she’s like, no, your mother gave them to me.

He’s like, give me the keys. And she kind of goes out. Well, fine. If you want the keys, take ’em. And he just screams at her. And it’s very similar in tone. Like, this is a stunted man, right? Mm-hmm. , he, he’s screaming like a child. You understand why he is so freaking frustrated at what these people are trying to do to him.

And he still, he can’t do anything about it. He’s very limited in what he can do about it. He feels backed into a corner like a rat in a 

Craig: corner, . Yeah. Well, you know, um, it’s not a bad metaphor, uh, right? It’s kind of, he is, he is backed into a corner and, and you know, we see and, and he sees that this trustee lawyer guy and his boss are in on it together.

And then I feel like it’s maybe the very next day, or as soon as he comes back to work, after having grieved for his mother, he comes back to work to an, a termination notice on his desk with his last paycheck. And he goes in to talk to his boss about it. His boss is just dismissive and, and mean, and, you know, so, uh, just sell me the house and you know, you can take the money and buy a little car and go off and start a new life or whatever.

And here, , um, he breaks down. And weeps, and begs and begs for 

Todd: his job. This part touched me. Yeah. He was literally crying. 

Craig: Yes. Just weeping. And God, you, I, I felt for this poor guy. He has nothing like, he has no connections. Probably not really any skills, right? No, no prospects, nothing. Um, and as, as terrible as this job is, it’s all he has.

And it also just so happens that he has brought both Socrates. He’s been bringing Socrates to work anyway, but he brings both Socrates and Ben to work that day. And just as in the first one, you know, leaves them in the store room, uh, to hang out during the day. But while he’s tearfully begging, uh, his boss for his job, um, some lady sees Socrates and screams, and the boss goes in there and kills Socrates with like a.

Pole. Uh, or, and it’s violent. Yeah, it was violent in the first one. It’s violent in this. It’s bloody. Yeah. And, and Willard just has to stand there and watch and, and more so in this, this was an interesting moment because yeah. Willard is standing there sweaty. I mean, he looks sick, he’s kind of looked sick throughout.

He’s so pale and so gone. And in this moment he’s, he’s sweating, he’s shaking and he’s just kind of watching in horror. And we also see that Ben is watching all of this too. And after Socrates is killed and everybody walks away, Willard almost like justifies himself to Ben. Yeah. Like, what was I supposed to do?

What, what could I do? I couldn’t do anything. And he is, what could I do? And then he looks at Ben and. What could we do? , 

Todd: you know, in, in the first movie, first of all, I didn’t understand why he didn’t intervene. I, I think in this sequel, the emotions and everything and just kind of what was happening, it made a little more sense why he didn’t or couldn’t kind of go in there and stop what was going on.

Right? Right. Obviously, there’s a thing, maybe he’s afraid if he goes in there, they’re gonna track the rats back to him, which I don’t know how that would happen. Well, also, who cares? But in the first movie, the fact, the fact that he just stood there in the doorway and kind of watched it all go down was a little unbelievable.

I mean, this is supposed to be this guy’s best friend, Uhhuh , and at the moment where he’s being threatened and his boss is gonna go in there, he’s gonna do absolutely nothing about it. So, yeah, I thought the second movie was a little better in that regard. But the tone of this scene, cha, is different between both of them.

In the first movie, this is where it seems like Ben. Is now a threat because Ben looks down and sees that Willard didn’t do anything about it, and he’s pissed. . Mm-hmm. , you can tell in the second movie, obviously Ben has a reason to be pissed this whole time, and this is just, you know, the straw that broke his back.

But then Willard enlists Ben. , you know, to go and get his revenge at the same time in this one. So, and he 

Craig: does, and this is the, uh, like the scene that they showed in all the trailers. I mean, it, it’s the best scene of the movie, so you may as well spoil it in the trailers. Yeah. Where, you know, he assembles with Ben’s leadership.

He assembles this enormous, like, ridiculously enormous army of rats, . And he, he takes them all to the office and they all come up in this industrial elevator. And when the doors open, it’s like when the elevator doors open in the shining, like, yeah, , like these rats just pour out of it. And, and as they pour out of it, Willard is slowly revealed as though those rats had literally filled from floor to ceiling the, that elevator and were just all over him.

I mean, it looks great. And obviously this is c g I and it looks really good. 

Todd: It does look good. It’s good for 2003 cgi, 

Craig: honestly. Absolutely. And, and a lot of this, you know, a lot of this, they clearly used real rats, you can tell. Uh, but I never was pulled out and thought, oh, that’s clearly cgi. I, I, I, not once, I mean, I, I know looking at that.

I know it’s cgi, but it looks so good. It looks real. And the rats come in and they attack the boss and, and he ends up in the elevator, uh, and, and they assemble and, and eat ’em up or whatever. Uh, which basically kind of leads to the showdown because this is now when, again, I don’t understand it, there are just too many rats and I get that.

But he tells them to follow Ben. But then I guess they don’t, like, they stick around and that’s when he gets pissed and starts trying to kill him. Is that right? 

Todd: Um, yeah. He’s just like, uh, you know, see you later, Ben. I think he’s trying to get rid of ’em, but it turns out that they’re back at the house anyway.

Or at least, I don’t know. Some of them have already been at the house. Maybe he’s taking care of the last bits. He’s, I think he’s maybe taking care of the last bit of it or whatever. In the first movie, God, he drowns them. And that’s, that’s hard to watch. I had forgotten about. That was even worse. Really? I, I mean, it’s both bad, but like, God, you can just set a, a smoke bomb in the, in the basement, close the door, which is what he does for these guys.

Or you can like, put them all in cages and physically hold them under the water until they’re all dead. Like, that’s a 

Craig: whole different story. Well, they come back. I, I, I think they’re back for revenge, I think is what we’re supposed to believe, because he does kill a bunch of ’em. Scoops ’em all up, burns them in the backyard, tries to rat proof the house.

He can’t, but he can’t really. The captain comes over, she comes in. I thought that she was gonna get her butt. Bit on the toilet 

Todd: too. I was so waiting for that. I 

Craig: also thought that it was hilarious that she comes in without his knowledge or permission, like because he had answered the door, but then he had had to run upstairs to get his coat or something, I don’t remember.

And she comes in, she’s like, I really have to go to the bathroom. And she goes into the bathroom. The toilet seat is duct taped, closed. But I guess she just pulls out a nail file and cuts it open cuz she really has to 

Todd: go. That’s crazy. . She’s very forward. Not only that, but I give her total props for not mentioning anything about the rat shit everywhere.

Craig: Right. Like she was just cool with the . She, she didn’t even ask where that cat was that she had given him. Oh my God. I can’t believe we forgot that scene. It’s from the original two par, at least part of it in the original. This girl who he is interested in, gives him a cat now. I don’t remember what happens to the cat in the first 

Todd: one.

Oh, in the first one He just gives it to another guy cuz you know he can’t have it at home. Yeah, 

Craig: in this one he just throws it in the house. . Oh my God. Before they leave. Is it the cat who turns on the radio? Yes. the cat 

Todd: leaps up, leaps up onto the chair in the room, onto the remote control, which turns on the tv, which happens to be on one of those like cable easy listening stations.

And what is the song that just happens to ? Is Michael Jackson’s bed? Yes. Oh my God. I think one thing we mentioned, we were talking about doing this movie. I was like, well, at least we get to talk about this song, . 

Craig: Oh, bro. I, I’m, I’m telling you, I. Un ironically, love this song, . Oh, 

Todd: I know . It’s a nice song. I, I, it’s been, it’s an earworm man ever been in my head for like 2, 2, 3 days.

Oh my God. 

Craig: I have been singing it around the house incessantly and like just the first line, like est, like just over and over again. It’s driving Alan crazy. And then like, I’ll be in the kitchen and I’ll hear from the living Room,

Todd: It’s that kind of song. Oh my God. It got nominated for an academy. Uh, like best song for Academy Awards. I think it won the Golden Globe that year for Best, best, uh, song. It’s a great 

Craig: John, great song. Michael Jackson said it was one of his favorite songs that he 

Todd: ever recorded. Well, it’s, it was like his first hit as a solo artist, Uhhuh 19, just before his voice broke.

Yeah. I will 

Craig: tell you that. In Ben the movie, which feels even more like a kid’s movie than the first one. And the rats don’t do anything wrong. Oh, in the second movie, like, um, they reference the fact that they killed two people. Well, those are the two people they killed in the first movie. Cause they don’t kill anybody in the second one that I remember.

Oh, they just do rat stuff. That’s disappointing. Well, kind of except, I mean, they’re just rat . 

Todd: Well, well, I mean, I think the way it was market, at least on the video cassette cover was like, if you thought Willard was bad, you know, you should see his brother Ben, which isn’t even accurate, 

Craig: but Right. I don’t remember them killing anybody.

They do attack one little boy and bite his feet, but that’s it. And that’s only because he was picking on their friend in, in that movie. They, Ben, I mean, it, it picks up exactly where Willard leaves off. And like this little boy lives in the house next door and Ben becomes his best friend. Um, and it’s, it’s very cute.

It’s a very cute movie. But this little boy is kind of like, he’s sick. He’s had a heart transplant. That’s a big part of the plot, but he’s also kind of like a savant and, and like he writes music and stuff. And so halfway through the movie he writes that song. Oh, and then for the whole rest of the movie, He is, sings it or plays it on an instrument incessantly,

Todd: Man, that’ll really drill it into your head too. It it, yeah. It, 

Craig: it gets to be a little bit much, frankly, . Um, but anyway, so the rats come back and they’re pissed off. This time it’s 

Todd: personal

Craig: and they come in through the chimney and they come in through the toilet and they’re like bursting through the ceiling and bursting through the walls. And at some point, Willard comes face to face. With Ben and he says something, he says, you can live anywhere. You can go anywhere. I have nowhere. Mm-hmm.

And he tries to trick him into a trap. And right before he tricks him into the trap, he says, I love Socrates, but I hate you. . 

Todd: Yeah, . Well, he really adds it out for Ben . I don’t know why. I still don’t know why, except I don’t either. He’s not Socrates. That’s the only thing I guess. Well, there, there’s a little bit of that.

You know, sinister Ben at the, again, after Ben Witnesses things go on that he fails to help Socrates in the closet when his boss kills him. I’d love it in this movie. Well, Ben keeps showing up on the bed and that’s really irritating to him. Uhhuh . And even though he like locks him in the basement, somehow Ben’s still on the bed.

And then he, he pulls like a one of his dad’s old canes or something and has it under his pillow so that when Ben comes on the bed one time, he tries to whack him with it. And then in the morning when he wakes up, His cane has like been chewed into pieces. , Uhhuh, . 

Craig: I also like, I also like that Socrates is constantly guilting him.

Like, why are you being mean to my friend ? Yeah. And Willard has to apologize like, oh yeah, I wasn’t really trying to hurt him. Uh, . 

Todd: Right. 

Craig: There are other little things that we’ve left out. Like at one point Willard tries to kill himself, but Socrates stops him. , 

Todd: yes. . I thought that was hilarious. No, it is funny.

That was Eyerolling. I liked it. That was Eyerolling though. It is. 

Craig: Oh, it totally is. Come on. So dumb. It is, but willing, suspension of disbelief. I am rolling with this story. I’m down with that. . 

Todd: Well, you think Willard’s gonna die because eventually he gets over overrun by the things there are cops outside who are trying to get in.

Presumably because he’s been tracked as a person of interest in his boss’s death. 

Craig: His girlfriend doesn’t try to help him because she puts two and two together that he must have been responsible for the boss’s death. And 

Todd: she’s not even his girlfriend really? No. She’s a concerned party. I think she could have been left out of both movies and it would’ve been just fine.

Yeah, yeah. Anyway, like, so he, he’s getting overrun. You, you think he’s dead? I, I thought he was gonna 

Craig: die. Well, he falls into a sea of rats. Like he a sea of just 

Todd: like the cat did . Right, right. But then, um, there’s a scene outside of, of the, the cops, and it’s this tracking shot that goes up to the house up into what I think was his dad’s study.

I don’t know, maybe that’s where he and Ben had their final showdown. And you just see the light on in there, and suddenly Ben’s silhouette is in the window, and then you see Willard’s silhouette come behind him and brutally stab the hell out of Ben. Mm-hmm. I mean, I assume it was Ben. It had 

Craig: to be right.

You know, it is because, um, Willard had trapped Ben in a trap, but then Ben had pulled his own or chewed his own foot off and left it, and left it in the trap, and, and the, the rat that you see behind the screen is limping, so, you 

Todd: know. Oh, I didn’t notice that. 

Craig: Subtle note. Yeah. So it’s been, and uh, so he kills him and then there’s like a, a, a cap scene where Willard is in an institution and coincidentally, A friendly white rat joins him in his cell , like he’s, he’s seemingly catatonic, like he won’t respond to the orderly who’s trying to deliver him his food.

But um, then when this white rat shows up, he kind of snaps out of it and says, you’ve come back to me. But we have to sit here and wait quietly. Quiet as a mouse . And then that’s the end. And then the credits roll. And it’s a cover of Ben Sung by Crispen Glover. Yes. It’s so good. And there’s a video for it.

Did you watch the video? No, I didn’t know there was a video. Oh my God. Oh my God. Oh, it’s. So good. It’s so weird and surreal, like it’s so real. Um, crisp and Glover is like performing in like a French cabaret and like the red curtain’s open and he flies in from the ceiling and he oh my gosh. Flies down to a pedestal with a red pillow on it.

And Ben is on the pedestal sing and he sings to him. And then like Ari Emre and other people from the movie are in the audience. And it’s a whole thing. You really need to watch it. Wow. You should maybe, you know, post it on our website. I don’t know. It’s amazing, but I love this cover. , 

Todd: Crispin Glover is one of those, I cannot believe he was married to Drew Barrymore for like, he was a hot second.

Yeah, he didn’t last very long, but you know, you just drew Barrymore. Cute, bubbly, happy. More or less. And then I knew, I 

Craig: knew they were friends. I didn’t know they were married cuz they worked together in the, uh, Charlie’s Angels movies that she produced. Mm-hmm. . No, I didn’t know that at all. He’s weird. Um, he is a musical artist too.

I think he goes by Crispin. Heian Glover. Uh, that’s his, which is his 

Todd: literal middle name. . His father had it too, like, oh my god. . Oh my gosh. 

Craig: That’s crazy. And then like, which comes first? The being weird Or the name? Like your middle. If your middle name is Heian, like, I feel like your options are limited.

Anyway, this was a super fun surprise. I had seen this movie before. Probably around the time that it came out. I remember when it came out, I remember thinking it looked cool and I was already a fan of Crisp and Glover at that point, mostly from back to the future, which he’s pretty normal in, but I was a fan already and so I was excited for it.

I didn’t see it in the theater, but I think I s I saw it on videos soon after it’s release, but I don’t remember much about it, but I was excited to watch it again and I’m glad that we had the opportunity because otherwise I, unless we did it for the podcast, I don’t think I would’ve watched the original and I loved it.

And watching the original gave me even more of an appreciation for this movie. Now. I love them both. And I would recommend either of them. And if you really want to get into it, watch ’em both cuz they’re fun to compare. 

Todd: Yeah, they really are. 

Craig: Because they’re the same story, but they’re told in such different 

Todd: ways.

Almost Beat for beat. The same story. Uhhuh, drastically different, uh, interpretations of, uh, you know, they’re told in different ways. Like you said, critics were very mixed on both of these movies. But the, like I said, the original was a surprise hit and people didn’t really know why. It just, just was very, very popular.

I think I can tell you why. I just think it’s a great character study and it was really fun. Mm-hmm. , I would recommend watching the original a hundred percent. Just be aware. It’s slow. It’s a slow burn. . Um, but it’s got a lot of great subtlety in there and great performances. Mm-hmm. , I think the main actor that’s totally believable in his role.

Yeah. It’s not played cartoony. It’s played very straight and it’s very effective, I think. And as a horror movie, like, you know what, it’s, it’s, I think it’s PG or, you know, it’s, it’s not a super scary movie. It’s not even close Uhhuh . But, uh, it’s really good. And this one, like I said, different kind of movie.

I thought it was super campy, very over the top, which is fine. It’s just very different from the original. So, uh, you’re, you’re gonna get two completely different experiences, I think, in watching it. Um, yeah, 

Craig: it’s true. They are 

Todd: different. I lean, I lean more towards the first one. If, if you’re gonna tell me, like, if I have to like destroy one forever, I would probably want to keep the original and not this one, but, uh, to each their own.

I thought it was a little over the top, but also it was very clear that the movie wasn’t taking itself seriously. Well, they were 

Craig: going for a very, uh, purposeful aesthetic mm-hmm. , and I was, I was down for it. Like I was on board. I was on board from those opening credits. Um, the music and, and the style. I felt like I knew what I was getting into and I wasn’t disappointed, but 

Todd: it’s played just seriously enough that I can see why maybe it didn’t connect with audiences very well.

Yeah, it didn’t do well at all because they wanted something a little more scary. This is campy horror. This isn’t really scary horror. I, yeah, it 

Craig: was, I would say it was supposed to be an R rating, but some other movie that was PG 13 did really well right before it. And so at the last minute they decided to trim it to get it down to a PG 13.

It sounds like all they did was take out a little bit of the part where the boss was getting killed. Yeah. And took out some of his foul language. So it doesn’t really seem like , it made that big of a difference. Um, and we, we’ve had the debate before, like, would it have done better in the theaters if it had had an R rating?

Maybe. Who 

Todd: knows? Well, you can see those deleted scenes on YouTube. There’s, I, I watched a few of ’em and that one, yeah. Where it was just a little bit bloodier. Not much of him 

Craig: and my boss in this. Could you? I looked for the alternate ending and couldn’t find one. Cause I read there was one. Did 

Todd: you find it?

I did too. No, I couldn’t find it. I was looking all over for 

Craig: it. I don’t know. Apparently there’s an alternate ending, but I don’t know what happens 

Todd: in it where, where he dies, I guess. I mean, what’s. I don’t know. Or he gets away. , 

Craig: probably one of those. Uh, but anyway, thank you patrons who requested this movie, cuz it had not crossed our minds, but I really had a good time with it.

It was a lot of fun to watch and, and talk 

Todd: about. Oh, absolutely. The both. This one and the original. Yeah. Uh, well I think we, do we still have one more to go for our 

Craig: rema fund? One more. Let’s do a little tease. I, I would say that this is probably one of, if not the most notorious remakes of all. . 

Todd: Mm-hmm. . We can’t wait to talk about it.

wait for that next week. You can find us as always at 2guys.red40net.com. If you want to, uh, help us choose the next theme month or, uh, help us with more requests like our patrons have done, check out paton.com/chainsaw podcast and consider joining the crew contributing to the podcast so that, uh, we can continue to bring it to you.

And, uh, for doing that, you get some influence over the show, as well as some other goodies for Mini SOS that we release a couple times a month. A full unedited, um, phone call that we edit down to put this podcast together and a couple other goodies, uh, up there as well. Until next time, I’m Todd. And I’m Craig with Two Guys and a Chainsaw.

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