2 Guys and a Chainsaw

Exorcist II: The Heretic

Exorcist II: The Heretic

regan superimposition

Often hailed as the second-worst movie ever made, this sequel to the iconic horror classic is a real head-scratcher.ften hailed as the second-worst movie ever made, this sequel to the iconic horror classic is a real head-scratcher.

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Exorcist 2: The Heretic (1977)

Episode 160, 2 Guys and a Chainsaw Horror Movie Review Podcast

Todd:Hello and welcome to another episode of 2 Guys and a Chainsaw. I’m Todd.

Craig: And I’m Craig.

Todd: Well, Craig, we continue our month of sequels with 1 that I know you and I were both excited to revisit. This is called Exorcist 2, The Heretic. And it almost seems heretical to even have a movie called The Exorcist Part 2, after the original was just so iconic at the time. Of course, we weren’t alive then, but you know, it was a pop culture phenomenon. It won lots of awards and it’s still I think pretty terrifying movie. Oh yeah. And   the second film in the series is a considerable departure from the original for a lot of reasons and it is decidedly not terrifying. When we were coming to do this, my reminiscences of seeing The Exorcist 2 was that it was so boring I fell asleep watching it the first time I’ll have to say that as I was watching it again. I was also nodding off This time around as well, so I don’t think that my assessment of this film has changed much since I first saw it. How about you, Craig? What’s your history with this movie?

Craig:Well, I don’t know. I think I’ve probably only seen it once before and probably a decade or more ago. It’s 1 of those things where like, How dare you make a sequel to The Exorcist? Well, of course the studio is going to want to. You know, it did so well. There was so much buzz surrounding it. Of course, they’re going to want to cash in on that. Plus, soon after The Exorcist came out, they, I think the same studio, if not a different studio, I don’t know, but The Omen came out, which was somewhat similar in   nature, and it had done really well. And so they really kind of tried to push a sequel for The Exorcist. They wanted to get it going right away. But they faced several roadblocks from the beginning because nobody who was involved with the first 1 wanted to do a sequel. The writer and director were not particularly interested. Linda Blair and Ellen Burston, the stars of the first movie, were not interested in doing it. They did not want to reprise their roles. And initially, the studio wanted to rush through it and make it a really low budget kind   of affair, kind of a la Silent Night, Deadly Night 2, where it would really just kind of be a rehash of the first movie showing unused footage and unused angles from the original film. It just didn’t really appeal to anybody. But they got people working on the script and they eventually got a script that Linda Blair got on board with. She said, all right, the script’s good, I’ll get on board. She said from the beginning, I’m not doing that makeup again. I’m not doing it. And you can’t blame her. We’ve never done The Exorcist and probably   never will just because it’s such an iconic film and what are we going to say that hasn’t already been said about it. But to get into that makeup was a really strenuous process. And she was a young girl. And she was strapped into that bed for days at a time. They were throwing her all over the place. So it was really kind of a traumatic experience for her as a young actress initially, and she wasn’t willing to go through that again. But when they presented her with this new script and she thought it was interesting, she   said, okay, they still couldn’t get Ellen Burstyn. They wanted her, and they wrote her character into the script. Louise Fletcher, who plays a major role in this movie, was originally cast as Chris McNeil, the mom, because she bears a striking resemblance to Ellen Burston. But After a series of rewrites, she got transformed into another character, and the mother was written out. You know, her absence is explained by she’s working, you know, she’s a popular actress, so she’s away shooting a movie or something. So They finally got a script that people got on board with. They started   shooting it. And then while they were shooting it, the scripts ended up going through so many rewrites that it eventually ended up being not even really comparable to what the original script had been. And I think pretty much everybody involved was disappointed in it and when it came out audiences were disappointed in it to the point where the audience for the original screening laughed through things at the screen, walked out, and it wasn’t received well at all. It seems like the director has is

Todd:a lot to blame for that, John Borman, who had done deliverance, you know, before this.

Craig:Of

Todd:course, he did Zardas after that before he did this, so you know it’s not like he’s a bit of a 50-50 guy at that point. However, he didn’t like the original. He thought it was distasteful. He was openly disdainful about it. So for him to finally get the job of doing this 1 is quite strange, except that he read a screenplay by the screenwriter, the original screenwriter for this film, who’s also a playwright, named William Goodhart, and he saw that this screenplay took a totally different angle with it instead of going down the rabbit hole of   demons and darkness and blood and gore and anything like that, anything terribly shocking, it was trying to explore this metaphysical angle about human consciousness and the nature of good and evil and trying to give a kind of reason for Linda to be possessed and by the end of the movie it turns out she’s special. It really takes a different angle on the themes. It’s a totally thematically a different movie. And he thought, okay, that is a movie that’s really interesting to me. I’m really interested in doing all of this, making a grand movie. Well, especially now,   when you look at it, it’s so hokey, all this metaphysical stuff. Part of it is because it’s so dated But even at the time I think audiences laughed out loud at certain points in this movie where these little contraptions come into play they’re supposed to hypnotize them. And so it’s just weird but the bottom line is this wasn’t what anybody was expecting from a sequel to The Exorcist. If you’re a fan of the original, you know we’ve talked about this before because we do a lot of sequels, if you’re a fan of the original doing a   sequel is necessarily going to be difficult because you’re going to want to give fans more of what they liked about the sequel, but if you just simply rehash the original, nobody’s going to like that either. So you’ve got to ride this line. And he just, he fell too far on that other side of the line, I think, of it was nothing like the first 1. And nobody wanted to see this kind of a movie. Maybe if it had been different and hadn’t been called The Exorcist, it would have had a thing. But by the third movie,   William Peter Blatty had come in so disgusted by this 1. I mean, nobody had anything nice to say about this movie. It was just absolutely, except Martin Scorsese, apparently. He came to the defense of the director saying he thought it was interesting that the attack that he did in a very bold statement, but everybody else, almost like cursing and swearing.

Craig:Well, the thing is that, you know, I think that it was doomed to failure either way. I mean, you either do what the studio had originally planned and just kind of make the same movie again, which may have satisfied some people, or you go in a completely new direction. And I respect the decision to take it in a new direction. And frankly, I think what is probably the major disappointment for a lot of people with this movie is that this 1 does not have the urgency that the first 1 has. Yes. The first movie, the danger   is clear and present, and it’s very scary pretty much throughout. And in this 1, the danger is more kind of lurking in the background.

Todd:I would go so far as to say the danger is really not present at all. It’s like none of what happens in this movie really even needed to happen, right? I mean, everybody could have left well enough alone. And I think that’s how I interpret it anyway. Maybe I’m a little mistaken. I think you’re right. The catalyst for it is that the priest, there is a priest who is called in by the cardinal to investigate the death of Father Marin, who was the guy in the original exorcist who at the very end gets possessed and then   himself and then throws himself out the window.

Craig:Well, see, and that’s very confusing because it’s not. That’s who I always think of him too.

Todd:Oh no, you’re right. It’s not him. It’s Max von Sido’s

Craig:character. Right. And he dies, you know, the demon I think causes him to have a heart attack, and he was the guy in the first 1 who was supposed to be the exorcism expert. He had performed lots of exorcisms before, And the guy that you’re thinking of, the guy that iconically jumped out the window and fell down that big flight of stairs, he was kind of a new guy. He was Father Charis, right? Something like that, yeah. And it doesn’t focus on his character. But you’re right. I mean, that’s how it starts out. The church wants   an investigation because Father Merrin had had this great reputation, but this has marred his reputation. And apparently, you know, he had done all this writing and the church had wanted to canonize his writing and stuff. But now, because several people died during this whole experience, including him, people were thinking that he was a fraud or maybe even a devil worshiper or something along those lines, and so they’re kind of trying to clear his name. Meanwhile, Reagan, again, played by Linda Blair, but it’s so almost bizarre because this is supposed to take place what, like maybe 2   years after the first 1?

Todd:4, but yes, it’s still bizarre. Is it 4?

Craig:Uh-huh. Yeah, Because all of a sudden, I mean, the first time you see her, like, she’s super sexy, and like, it’s like they’re kind of playing that up. Like, she’s like in like a crop top and… Oh

Todd:yeah, no bra.

Craig:Right, and she’s, you know, developed as a lovely young woman, and I think in the first 1 they had to downplay, you know, they were trying to downplay her age. I think that Linda Blair was actually older than the character was supposed to be, but they did a pretty good job of making her seem younger. Well here, you know, she looks significantly older, which was a little bit jarring to me. Yeah, me too. But anyway, you know, she is continuing on in her life. She’s now living in New York with her nanny, who is reprised by   the same actress from the first movie. Her mom is out of the picture working. We never see her. She’s referenced a lot, but we never see her. And she’s seeing this psychiatrist, I guess.

Todd:I guess some kind of therapist, yeah.

Craig:Yeah. Dr. Jean Tuscan who works with, it seems that she works with children with special needs. Reagan has been receiving therapy from her, and she seems to be fine except for either she doesn’t remember the events of the first movie or she’s claiming that she doesn’t.

Todd:Right.

Craig:The therapist, played again by Louise Fletcher, who’s a great actress, I think, and looks fantastic in this movie and I think does a really good job in her role in this movie. She wants Reagan to process what has happened to her so that she can leave it in the past.

Clip:I do. I   do. But you keep telling me you don’t remember about that time in Washington. I don’t know if I believe you.   I remember being very sick and having nightmares and that’s   all. Those bad dreams are still inside you.   There’s nothing wrong with me.   Reagan, I want to show you something. You see this?

Craig:She introduces this machine, which is really stupid. Oh my gosh. But I mean, you know, if you think about it from a realistic perspective, it seems really stupid. As a movie contrivance, I don’t care, fine, whatever. But the the machine can hypnotize 2 people and meld their consciousnesses, I guess. It’s like they can, you know, get into 1 another’s minds and the doctor thinks that she can go into Reagan’s mind and kind of walk her through her memories and her nightmares and help her to process them and get over it.

Todd:It’s like dreamscape except in dreamscape we had this like hugely scientific facility and they get into these machines that with wires and things sticking all over them, it’s clearly like a big deal. This is 2 flashing lights on a stick. Yeah. This is,

Craig:and headbands, like sweat bands.

Todd:Yeah, like sweat bands. They just slap on their head. It doesn’t really matter, apparently, where these electrodes are placed on their brain and and it’s all done in a very very casual air Like there is nothing terribly interesting about you know It’s just like let me pull out this little machine from my pocket that will let me get into your mind

Craig:well and it’s silly and you almost feel like the actors know how silly it is because people can just jump in and out. Like, I’ll take over. Yeah, take the headband off her and put it on me and it’ll

Todd:be fine. Like you’re handing the controller to somebody to take over your video game while you go to the bathroom?

Craig:Exactly, exactly. At first, Reagan doesn’t want to do it, but then the priest comes to do the investigation and for whatever reason that interests Reagan, so she wants to do it. So she and the doctor hook up and meld up, and it’s a whole process where they have to, I don’t know, like make your tone go lower. I don’t know, you know, silly flashing light stuff. And it’s so funny the first time they do it because they show the process and like to indicate to us that they’re going under. All of the actors have to roll   their eyes into the back

Todd:of their head. Looks terrible.

Craig:It looks so stupid and it’s just so funny because it really just seems like the actors are rolling their eyes at the whole scene. Ooh, okay, I’m hypnotized now. It’s terrible.

Todd:Although, I’ll give them some credit because they could have just hooked them both up and said, okay, now you’re in a deep sleep and here you go into your dreams and then somebody rolls their eyes and the other person rolls their eyes and suddenly they’re there. I thought that the tone matching thing was kind of clever. There’s a little bit of play that they do with it as far as trying to indicate to you what state each person is in, whether 1 person is in trouble. Like for example, while they’re in their state and they’re connected,   the nurse, sorry not the nurse, I’m gonna think of her always as nurse ratchet, Jean the doctor, a therapist or whatever, starts seeing visions of the exorcism. Reagan was in and her heart starts beating very very quickly and the tones and the flashing on the machine start going to affect that so it’s like it’s tapping into their brain waves or their their mental state or whatever and I’m gonna try to be really generous to this movie and say that there are some things in here as silly as this whole contraption and stuff is, at least they   made some interesting use of it to add some drama to the scene. I’ll give it that.

Craig:Jared S Yeah, I thought that this scene was interesting too because once they’re both in, we don’t… Okay, so she’s reliving. Regan is reliving or revisiting the exorcism, the part of it where Father Maren died. And we get flashbacks. And the evil Regan is not played by Linda Blair. It’s a stand-in. She looks enough like her that it doesn’t, it’s not that jarring. But I almost, I almost feel like when Linda Blair was like, I’m not getting in the makeup, they were like, okay, well, we’ll get a double. And then they were kind of like, well,   just slap some makeup on her.

Todd:Like. It’s not the

Craig:same. No, in the first movie, the makeup is so disturbing. Like it’s so gross and real looking, and in this it just kinda looks like some really good Halloween makeup.

Todd:Yeah, I imagine that again was the director didn’t wanna throw anything too terribly exploitative in this movie, nothing too horror. Yeah. It just looks a little cleaned up, like you said, a little cleaned up.

Craig:Fair enough. The cool thing that I thought was they do some interesting superimposing. So they’re reliving this and then it comes to the point where Father Marin starts to have a heart attack which is what happened in the first movie, like the demon is causing this heart attack or whatever, and it starts to freak out Dr. Tuscan and she’s like convulsing and the nurse checks her heart and her heart is palpitating or something. I don’t remember what she said. And so Reagan comes out of it. They set off this alarm to wake them up and Reagan   comes out of it, but the doctor doesn’t. And Reagan goes over and at first I thought it was kind of strange. Like she puts her hand on her chest like she’s feeling her heart. It looked a little unnatural to me at first. It almost looked like she was feeling her up. But then I realized it was because they were setting up for this scene where the 2 scenes, like the flashback or the memory or whatever it is, and the present day come together through superimposing so that demon Reagan and good Reagan are like holding hands over   the nurses or not nurse now you’ve got me doing it yeah you know of course Reagan doesn’t realize this but I think that it’s supposed to show that they are still connected or whatever. I thought the effect, though it may not have been executed as well as it might be today, I thought that it was a cool effect and served its purpose in showing that this demon is still a presence, an influence.

Todd:Yeah, it was, and it was really cinematically a very, also very technically good scene. I mean, everything lines up pretty well, and the superimposition and the way everything goes. It does look a little bit like even Demon Regan is fondling her a little bit, but then they go a little Dario Argento on us. Now here, I just finished saying that this was fairly cleaned up as far as the makeup goes, but then you get this gross scene which is a close-up on her heart like you’re seeing the inside of it and you can see Regan demon   Reagan’s hand actually grabbing the heart like she’s trying to rip it out or she’s trying to manipulate it or squeeze it hard or something like that. And I thought that was a little shocking. Maybe the most shocking, disturbing scene in this whole movie is this 1. Yeah. It starts out with a little bit of promise, although that promise is bookended by a whole lot of ridiculousness that really takes you out of it, you know?

Craig:Yeah, so then the priest jumps in because you can do that apparently.

Todd:I know where she is. It’s so funny too. It’s like he’s looking at this machine for the first time. He’s also very disdainful to the doctor in their previous conversation about her whole emphasis on the physical aspects of stuff, you know. She’s talking very much about consciousness and about mental illness, and he’s saying, we’re dealing with evil here. It’s a spiritual supernatural thing. But then when he’s seeing this machine and seeing it in action, he jumps in and he knows exactly what to do. You know,

Craig:let me take over.

Todd:I know where she is, you know, and he jumps in and puts it on like he’s done this a thousand times before. Again, it’s just a hokey, you know, get down to her, talk me down, right? Talk me down to her, stare at the light. And you know, you don’t really see any visual representation of what’s going on. You just see them staring into the light and the blinking after a while. It’s probably supposed to hypnotize the audience about as much as it’s hypnotizing them. Sure.

Craig:The only thing really of significance that happens, I guess, I mean, it’s all significant, but the demon says in the flashback or whatever it is, She is mine always. And so it’s planted into the priest mine and us, the audience’s mind that the demon really wasn’t expelled, it’s just been repressed. Like it’s inside her, it’s latent, but it’s still a threat. From then on, the very next thing that happens is Reagan goes out and she’s really good with the kids, the other special needs kids in this place, and She talks to them. And I have to   say, you know, there are parts of this movie where Linda Blair’s acting is bad, but there are also parts of the movie when she’s playing sweet Reagan McNeil, where she’s so endearing. Like she’s just very sweet and she’s really pretty. I didn’t remember her being that pretty.

Todd:She’s unbelievably cute in almost every shot. Even when she’s got yellow eyes and stuff it’s almost even she’s even cuter.

Craig:And apparently like she was falling into a bad drug habit at the time, and she was late on set every day, and it was just a mess all around. But whatever, they got through it. But after this happened, she goes out and she’s talking to these kids, and 1 of the kids is drawing, and so she draws with them, and she draws a picture, and then a nurse gives it to Father Lamont.

Todd:For some reason.

Craig:And it’s a picture of him. It almost kind of looks like floral fronds coming out around his head, but he immediately knows that it’s fire and it freaks him out and he’s like, ah, there’s a fire somewhere. And Dr. Tuscan’s like, what? You’re crazy. But they run around and they eventually find a fire in the basement. And as they’re trying to put it out, Dr. Tuscan looks at him and it’s an exact replication of the picture that she had drawn. It seems to me like what they’re suggesting is that by having done this thing with the   machine they have awoken something inside of her, which is, I get, like it would make sense that they’re, you know, maybe they’re poking at the demon and that maybe gets the demon going, but it almost seems like they’re awakening something else, which comes up later, as you said, like it turns out that she’s special. Yeah. And it doesn’t seem like there was any indication of that before, but now there is.

Todd:Yeah. Well, that’s part of the problem with it, is that there never really is any indication except for this thing that’s said that she’s mine and that gets it into his head that you know maybe she’s still latent. There is not now nor anytime in the almost till the very end of the movie is there any change in her really and her personality. She’s having weird dreams and stuff but she’s not like slowly becoming evil Reagan again. Right. Now, I will say though that 1 of the nice things about the, clever things about the script is   how it all ends up being a little interconnected in that there is this continual fire motif. So the reason that the fire freaks him out is because this guy had a terrible incident with a fire a little earlier in his career when he himself was doing an exorcism. And this is 1 of the very first scenes of the movie. I think it is the first scene of the movie.

Craig:Yeah, I think you’re

Todd:right. He’s like in, I can’t, is it Africa? Is it somewhere in Africa?

Craig:I think it’s Mexico.

Todd:Mexico, you’re right, it is Mexico because they’re speaking Spanish. And there’s this intense scene where this woman is obviously possessed and there are tons of people in this house holding her back and there’s religious iconography everywhere. There are all these candles up against the wall and he comes in and he’s terrified by this. And as he starts to do his thing, this woman breaks loose and she knocks all the candles down and it’s seemingly the demon inside of her, whatever, like willingly self-immolates her body. So she stands there going up in flames, cackling away. And so   we see this image of this woman with the close up on the face, the flames looking up around her and her looking out and smiling. And so this relates to that. Yeah, right. And it’s

Craig:thematically important because she says, why me, why me? I help people, I heal people, why would this happen to me? And that becomes significant, because I’m jumping ahead of myself, there’s a whole other subplot that we’ll get to here in just a second, but as it turns out, There are people in the world who are special and who are healers and the devil has sent this 1 particular demon to torment and kill these special people and it turns out that Regan is 1 of these people. Like you said, you know, not a lot is changing in   her, but things are happening and kind of the next thing we see is she’s having a nightmare and she sees like a tribal village and there’s some weird imagery with like a swarm of locusts. They look like grasshoppers to me, but they call them locusts throughout. And then she sleepwalks out under her balcony as she lives in this gorgeous Manhattan apartment. This insanely expensive apartment. Oh, it’s ridiculous. It’s like wall to ceiling, windows, right behind her bed. Really huge. And she walks out onto this huge balcony, which is my worst nightmare, because I hate heights, period.   But it also, it has a railing, but the railing is disjointed, there are big gaps between it. This is like the stupidest

Todd:railing that could be. Yes, it’s a railing and there are literally 2 big gaps like somebody supposed to walk through these, except it leads right out into the edge and over it. So when I’m watching this movie for the first time I am also afraid of heights. I’m thinking why in the hell is there does this railing not go all the way around here. I don’t care how trendy and cool this house is, there is no good reason for this to be a death trap like this.

Craig:Exactly. Okay, so she’s sleepwalking, she walks out onto it, she walks right up to the ledge, and I read that There was nothing going on here. There were no effects, there were no safety nets, nothing. Like this poor young actress just walks up and stands on this ledge where she could have, you know, a big gust of wind could have come and

Todd:she could have just flown right off. I have to say that really pissed me off. First of all, the scene terrified me and then when I went back and I read that they actually shot it that way I was so angry. I mean that is such an irresponsible thing to do. It is. As a filmmaker and I can’t believe that there was a set full

Craig:of people that allowed that to go down. And where was their insurance agent? Like, don’t they have insurance people on sets?

Todd:So I had to go back and look at that scene and see it like frame by frame to see what she put herself through. And sure enough, I think her arms are out a little bit, because you know, she’s kind of like, it’s almost like she’s drifting towards it. She’s got her arms out, and is blowing through her things. And I could tell maybe she was using, because she’s staring straight ahead. I mean, that’s the whole point of the scene. It’s like she’s sleepwalking almost off the edge. It looked like maybe she was using the left   or the right side of her arm to just feel like it would brush up against the railing, which could kind of tell her where to stop. And then you could see her foot goes right up and her toes curl over the edge. So you could see how deliberate she was about making sure she didn’t go off. And I’m thinking, oh my God.

Craig:Yeah, you couldn’t, you couldn’t, there’s not a amount of money that you could pay me to do that. Like, just walking out on that balcony, period, I would have been prostrate on the ground. Like, get me out of here.

Todd:It’s awful.

Craig:But you know, you suffer for your craft, I suppose. Anyway, so she has this dream. And so she and the priest link up again with the machine and Reagan starts speaking as Pazuzu, which is the demon. And she tells, again, there are just so many stupid things. Like she tells the priest, like, she says, call me. And he says, Reagan, Reagan? And she says, no, call me by my dream name. And so he calls her Pazuzu. And then Pazuzu takes him on this whole trip or whatever. Now I’m not a priest but I am Catholic and   priests are not just gonna mess around with demons like that. Like, okay, what are we gonna do? Where are you gonna take me? This will be fun.

Todd:This will be fun, right?

Craig:But for story purposes, Pazuzu is like an evil god of the air or something. And so it can fly around on the wings of these locusts or whatever. And it takes him and it shows him this village where another, and it’s lazy because it’s flashback and exposition and also trying to advance the plot, but it just, it feels lazy. But we see Father Marin in this tribal place, I think it ends up being in Ethiopia, and he’s trying to exercise this young African boy. And The guy that they got to play, Young Max Sedow, I don’t   know who it was, but he looked just like

Todd:him.

Craig:He did. So, good job. He tries to exercise them and he can’t, and then, I was like, what is happening? They’re climbing cliffs, I’m like, what is going on?

Todd:It’s almost deliberately disjointed. You really, is this the same day? Is it later? Are we in a different place? Who are these people? You’re right. It’s just cut, cut, cut,

Craig:cut, cut. And it turns out, I mean, I didn’t figure this out until later, but it turns out that it’s this, I don’t even know if this is historically accurate or geographically accurate, but in the movie, there are these big churches built into the walls of these huge cliffs, and they have to climb up the cliff to get there or whatever. And they go there and he, because it’s a holy place, he’s able to exercise Pazuzu. But Pazuzu tells our priest, Father Lamont, that the kid is still alive. And the guy’s like, oh, well, if he’s   still alive, show me where he is. And he’s like, well, I can if I want to. And I could take him back right now if I wanted to. So he flies him again to some other tribal area that we don’t know where it is. And they find this guy who is now a grown man, but the guy like turns into like a leopard and chases them off

Todd:well it’s so dumb it I mean let’s just talk about this flight for a second too because the way that this is filmed is they had some footage of actually pretty impressive footage of a locust flying stationary that the bottom of the screen basically is this locust like we’re right behind it or we’re riding it and it’s flapping its wings and at the same time we are you know POV over it drifting through these villages and over land and whatnot across the terrain of Africa but whenever we dip into these villages it’s like the people can   see this little locust or presumably maybe there’s more on top of it? I don’t know. And they’re running from it, like they’re scared. It just… Why, Craig? Why is it so bad? It’s like Godzilla, you know? It’s like people running from Godzilla down these streets and away from this locust. Yeah. That’s flying through the town and so much of it looks fake. You know, he tried to film all this on location and it proved to be impossible so they actually had to film a lot of these scenes that take place in Africa and all these exotic   locations on Warner Brothers’ backlots outside and it shows, you know, there’s just something about these scenes that don’t look quite right and authentic. Sometimes it’s the backdrop and sometimes it’s the way things are built like the mud huts and things like that look They just look a little too built. Artificial. Artificial, yeah, thank you. Like you’re in a theme park somewhere.

Craig:Right, and I agree with you. I didn’t make my partner watch this 1 with me, but he was like, how was it? And I was like, well, And really my general feeling is I don’t really think it’s that bad. I don’t think it’s as bad as the reputation that it’s earned but what I said was the parts that are bad are so bad that it kind of just Mars the whole movie and and and that’s 1 of the things and I also just thought there was just too much going on and Like the original cut I   guess was 3 hours long and they ended up cutting it down and it’s almost a pretty clean 2 hours now, but There’s just so much going on with these side stories that you just don’t get particularly invested in any of it, I guess.

Todd:And that’s the problem with a kind of metaphysical-ish movie, too, is because so much of the action is happening in these weird ways, like in people’s heads or in these dreams or these dream trips or whatever we’re supposed to be, which gets back to what you said earlier. There’s no urgency here. Right. All of this supposedly exciting and crazy stuff is going on between 2 people who are strapped to a dumb machine, you know, staring at flashing lights. It’s not affecting them here and there in the moment. And it’s almost like if it weren’t for the   suggestion that she might still be possessed by this demon, they could all just shut it down at any time and just say, oh well, well that was interesting information, but you know, because there’s no danger to anybody, there’s no immediate danger to anybody in this film until towards the very end.

Craig:Right. And so when they come out of this, you know, when they come out of the hypnosis, they’re not supposed to remember anything, but they do now for unexplained reasons. And both the priest and Reagan remember what they saw. And this is when they start to realize that this boy also was a healer, like the girl in Mexico, and so that they’re building towards that. And then Reagan immediately goes out and starts talking to this girl. And again, she’s so charming. I totally believe that she would go out and talk to these special needs kids. But   she starts talking to this girl and she’s like, what’s wrong with you? And the girl is like stuttering and stuff, but she says, I’m autistic and I can’t talk. And Reagan’s like, well, you’re talking to me right now. And the girl’s like, I am? You can hear me? Yeah. And then the mom and the doctor come out, and the girl is talking. Reagan says something when the priest and the doctor are the only ones left around, like after the mom’s taken the girl away or whatever. And she’s like, I just started talking to her. And at   first she was talking on the inside and then she started talking on the outside. And so of course, we’re led to believe and it seems like even Reagan is starting to realize that she is some sort of healer as well. And she even says that she would like to start working with the other children, but the doctor says, no, not yet. You know, we don’t know what’s going on. It’s too dangerous, whatever.

Todd:The Doctor says, literally says, please don’t try anything like that again until you’re older. Yeah, it’s just so dumb. Again, there are these crazy things happening. People are getting into each other’s dreams. She’s healing people, stuff like that. But there’s just this sense that, oh well, business as usual at this crazy clinic. You know, they’re interested in it, they’re pursuing it, but it doesn’t have the weight and the gravity that it should have. And then the things that the movie lends such weight and gravity to are almost a little too overwrought and a little silly. It’s   just off balance to me, I think. I think that’s why it feels so ridiculous.

Craig:Yeah, it is unbalanced because then, you know, I’m most interested in Reagan’s story. And then, right after this, we leave her for, well, for the most part, for like a good 15-20 minutes. And Lamont goes to the church and is like, I need to go to Africa to investigate. And they’re like, no, you’re bad. And so we’re taking you off the assignment or something. But he goes anyway. Well, before that even Reagan and Lamont meet at the Museum of Natural History for whatever reason. And they talk, they have this big talk about universal consciousness.

Clip:Father, do priests believe in ESP?   Some do. In fact, a French priest tired of shut down thought that we’d all come together eventually in some sort of mental telepathy. A kind of world mind in which everybody would share.   When is that supposed to happen?   I don’t know. Father Marion himself believed that with modern scientific research it could happen quite soon. I mean the kind of research that Dr. Tusken is doing.

Craig:That was a good thing unless it wasn’t. And like. That’s right, that’s how he puts it. Like, because either, you know, we can all be mind melded together for good unless we become corrupted and then we’re all mind melded together for bad and then that’s bad. So Lamont goes off to Ethiopia looking for this boy, Kukomo, who was the 1 that was possessed before. And there’s a whole big thing where he visits the church and like he tries to talk to the elders, but then the elders think he’s like a devil worshiper or something. And then   Ned Beatty shows up and takes him to the village where Kokomo lives. But for unexplained reasons, the villagers won’t tell him where Kokomo is. So he looks around for him for a long time. And then he eventually finds him, and it’s James Earl Jones, much younger. And like, when he finds him, he’s like, in this ceremonial garb where he’s like dressed as like a locust and he’s sitting in this temple or something. I don’t know. But he’s like, you have to make the choice. You have to decide between good and evil. Evil’s trying to corrupt you   because the priest even relied on Pazuzu to help him find the boy, which again is stupid and silly. But then like there’s this whole thing It’s like you have to take a leap of faith and you have to make a choice and you have to walk over these broken shards of glass that are sticking up out of the ground. And the priest is like, okay, well, I’ll do it. And so he does. And he steps on the glass and there’s a gross shot where it like shows all the glass like coming up out of the top   of his foot. And then he falls as though he’s gonna fall on the glass but when he like startles back into consciousness they’re in a lab and Kokomo’s like a locus scientist.

Todd:I was hoping you could explain this to me.

Craig:No. I can’t. I have no idea what’s going on.

Todd:I have no idea either. In fact, I don’t even know what the point of this whole scene was. I couldn’t wrap my mind around it. You’re right. So he stands up and he’s in a lab and it’s this lab totally devoted to locusts. There’s like locust paintings on the wall. There’s locusts. I was thinking is this like, is this a weird mind trip that he’s having where he’s melding the modern with the tribal as though this is just sort of a modern version of what you might like a religious place, you know, where you have all   this iconography and stuff all up around devoted to 1 singular purpose where everybody, you know, is studying God or studying this deity or whatnot, but in this case, it’s a locust. And so you got locusts on the walls. Everybody’s studying locusts there. Locusts in big containers in here. That’s kind of what I thought might be happening, but then it just drops. Like it’s done. And he brings him to James Earl Jones who looks like a scientist, glasses, smiling, laughing, everything.

Craig:Lab coat, right?

Todd:Brings him to these locusts in the in the big containers. We get lots of really cool close-up shots of locusts doing all kinds of gross things. There’s a little bit of voiceover where he tells him some stuff about Locus and I guess some of it’s supposed to be significant, but it went right over my head.

Craig:Yeah, it went totally over my head too.

Clip:But most importantly, the brushing of the wings changes their personality. They become a destructive, voracious, marauding swarm with a single mind. A locust mind, if you will. The evil swarm sweeps relentlessly over the earth, possessing all that it touches Evil breathing evil by contact when   the wings of brush you is there no hope once the wings of brush you   we try With the help of science.

Craig:I don’t know. The point that we’re supposed to get, I think, is that if the locust’s wings like touch you, then you’re like marked and then the other locusts will eat you or kill you or something like that. But the whole point is, it’s a metaphor, obviously, and it’s supposed to be like, once you’ve been touched by evil, you’re forever marked by it. So like once Pazuzu has touched you, you’re forever marked and stained by that or whatever. But then James Earl Jones is like, but we’ve genetically engineered this 1 locust who we call the good   locust. That’s a really creative name. Good job. We call it the good locust and it doesn’t do that. It’s going to eradicate this problem. It’s going to start a whole new wave of good locusts or whatever. And so in my notes, I just have, so Reagan is the good locust, and then, yeah. Like, that’s

Clip:what it turns out to be.

Todd:Oh, and gosh. And then he’s just back in the United States again. I mean It’s just it obviously there’s a lot of stuff cut out of this movie You know there’s a lot of how do people get from here to there? Like I said, I was left a little wondering the significance of the information that he had except like you said okay it was it’s a metaphor but but what good does that do him

Craig:oh they try to tie it back in at the end but it’s just I mean it’s

Todd:it doesn’t drive him along to solving this problem you know you know None of this is it’s it’s like a movie that is three-quarters exposition

Craig:Mm-hmm,

Todd:it’s all backstory all exposition all telling us how everything is going to be significant Just wait until the last you know 30 minutes and and we’ll actually get some action here that has some bearing on the characters. It’s going to have some urgency.

Craig:Well, yeah. I mean, and it’s really more like the last 15 minutes of this 2 hour movie, which is fine, whatever. But meanwhile, Reagan is still back in the United States and something happened to the priest where the villagers thought he was a devil worshiper so they were throwing rocks at him and Reagan was doing her tap recital and she could feel it, she was getting stoned too. She falls off the stage, she gets hospitalized and then while the priest is still in Africa apparently now they can mind meld

Todd:whenever they want. Yeah. Right.

Craig:I don’t know. It’s so weird. The priest comes back, Reagan runs away from the hospital where she’s been admitted because of that whole incident, and Reagan steals the mind melder machine, as I like to call it. They meet up again at the Museum of Natural History, because that’s their special place. The favorite meeting rendezvous place. And They go to a hotel.

Todd:They go to a fleabag sleazy ass hotel to do their mind build again. I’m thinking, oh, this is good for this priest.

Craig:And he’s not dressing as a priest anymore, I notice. Like he’s not wearing his clerical collar. It’s like he’s a fallen priest or something

Todd:at this point. And once again, you know, there’s a lot in the exorcist to do with the background of that 1 guy that we were talking about earlier, Father Karras. The more interesting of the priest in that movie, where he’s clearly got… It’s strongly hinted at some deep-seated psychological sexual issues that maybe he has, maybe some urges

Craig:that he has. Well, and he’s having a crisis of faith. I mean, that’s a huge part of the first movie is a crisis

Todd:of faith. Yeah, and all of this is also linked in there as well, because she gets at him in certain ways by making certain comments that are really bad. And here, you know, there’s this odd scene toward the beginning of the movie where Lamont and the Dr. Jean are sitting down and having a chat. It’s very brief.

Clip:Do you have children of your own?   Yes I do, too. A boy and a girl. I’d like to spend more time with them.   Must be difficult with all your responsibilities here.   Not to mention the complications of being divorced.   You seem to manage. Your heart is good.   It’s hard to live alone. Don’t you ever need a woman, Father?

Craig:Yes.

Todd:So there’s that. And then a little later on, when he’s going to Africa and these villagers are ostensibly taking him to see this guy, but they end up taking him to see a prostitute. And he looks up at her and I thought, oh, are they trying to kind of go here? But then he just walks away from that. And then here’s this bit where he’s in this fleabag hotel with this woman. I thought maybe something was going to go down between them, or he was going to get these urges, or there was going to be some   implication.

Craig:Jared Well, it almost seems like there should have been because in the final act, there’s a weird scene.

Todd:Jared Yeah.

Craig:Jared God, I don’t even know. It doesn’t even matter how you get there. They mind-meld, the priest goes into like this weird trance. Well, first, when they mind-meld the original priest, Max von Sydow, whatever his name was, says She’s special and I’m turning her over to you. You’re responsible for her now. And then Reagan comes out of it, but he really doesn’t. Like he’s kind of in a trance, like a waking trance. And he just starts walking away and she’s following him. And ultimately he’s leading her back to DC where all of the events happened. And   she calls Dr. Gene and Sharon, the nanny is there too, and says, you know, we’re going back there, he’s going back there and I have to go with him, I have to make sure he’s okay or whatever. And so they’re all headed to DC and I don’t even really understand what’s going on. Like all these weird things are going on and at 1 point the priest says, oh, I can feel the power. It’s getting so close. I can do anything I want. You called Jean, right? And she’s like, yeah. And then, Like all these supernatural or   seemingly supernatural things start happening to seemingly try to delay Gene and Shannon from getting there?

Todd:It seems to be, but I’m still confused as to why they’re going there. What is it about, Is this like a haunted house thing? Where they have to go back to that original room? It’s really important? Like, I couldn’t figure out for the life of me, even after it happened, why he was being compelled to go back to that place. And that’s a real problem. Did I miss something? Because they visited it earlier. Did I miss something important except for the shot of a locust, like, you know, up in the corner, buzzing its wings?

Craig:No, I don’t think you missed anything.

Todd:There’s just a big gaping hole, and that is motivation. Why is it important that he goes back to this place? How is this suddenly sinister that he’s gonna find something there? And then there are these supernatural forces that are trying to keep the other 2 from catching up with them

Craig:I really don’t know and it’s very confusing to me because at some point I   think it’s Kokomo or whatever his name is, says you have to rip out the heart of the demon or something like that. And then somebody else says to the priest, when he says, well, I have to save the girl or something, and somebody says, well, which girl are you going to save? Are you going to save Reagan or are you going to save Pazuzu? As though they are 2 different people, which has never been explored or introduced before. But then eventually they do get there and well the priest and Reagan get there and they you know   go back into the house at which by the way They were not allowed to reuse any of the original shooting locations, so they had to recreate everything on sound stages and stuff. It looks the same. Anyway, they go back and he goes in and opens the door to her old bedroom and is freaked out and she’s trying to help him. Reagan is. He just points at the door and she goes and opens it up And there she is. So now we have Evil Reagan in the bed and good Reagan not like they’re 2 separate entities. What   like yeah, I really don’t understand what’s going on. And then to make matters even worse, she, evil Reagan, you know, looks, you know, all possessed and cut up and gross for a second, but then they transform her into very sexy, hair blown out. Like, like she’s like this sex pot on the bed and they’re both talking like Pazooz is talking and Reagan is talking and Pazooz calls the priest and is like come to me or whatever, you’ve chosen me and so he like jumps out with her? Yeah, he like makes out with her for a little   bit.

Todd:It’s just, again, I thought maybe there was that implicate, I thought, oh here’s my payoff. This very slightly alluded to by a few very brief references was, oh okay, all along he’s sort of been lusting after Reagan and that’s gonna be his undoing or he’s or just some woman to come on to him. He’s paper thin if that’s what it was supposed to be. But yeah he jumps on her.

Craig:It’s very confusing.

Todd:He starts making out with her.

Craig:Meanwhile The women are on their way Like they’re playing almost crashes and then the demon like takes over the cab and makes it crash right in front of the house And the cab drivers dead and then this is the other part that I didn’t understand at all all of a sudden Seemingly out of nowhere now Sharon is evil. Yeah Like she is trying to help Pazuzu. And I think that this was supposed to be kind of this whole crisis of faith thing. Like there had been a little hints dropped where she said like she couldn’t even   look at Reagan for like 2 years, but now She’s back and it seems like it’s only when she’s with Reagan that she’s at peace So I don’t know if that’s supposed to mean that somehow she’s attached to the demon inside of her or something. But Sharon sets herself on fire using the gas from the car accident to keep Dr. Tusken from getting in. And then just all hell breaks loose and it’s like Pazuzu tells the priest to kill Reagan and he starts to he’s like strangling her but she’s pleading with them and then she starts pleading   not in the voice of but using the same words as the Spanish girl who he had been with beginning like you know why me why me I’m a healer why me or something like that and then all of a sudden

Todd:he’s back to normal really quickly

Craig:right really quickly

Todd:he leaves on to the deck yeah yeah and attacks the other Reagan the evil Reagan at which point all hell really breaks loose. Like the walls of the building start breaking apart and the floorboards are coming up.

Craig:A swarm of locusts attacked.

Todd:It’s just mass chaos and then it’s like the floor breaks apart and there’s this big chasm now and Reagan’s on 1 end by the wall just on this tiny little ledge and he’s battling the other Reagan in the bed and the bed’s tipping towards the hole. And then we get this shot of him literally reaching into her chest and pulling out her evil heart. Like literally has a dripping heart in his hand.

Craig:Well, the whole floor collapses and everybody falls down to the bottom. And then Reagan and the priest walk out and they find Dr. Tuscan and Dr. Tuscan is like crying and she’s like, I’m so sorry, Reagan. I understand now, but the world won’t the world isn’t ready. And so so the priest and Reagan just walk away like they’re just gonna

Todd:walk into the sun

Craig:right like I don’t need she’s like you have to get out of here before the cops get here like why like she didn’t do anything like what is the world not gonna understand I don’t get it there’s a little moment where Sharon says like before she dies she’s all burned up she’s like oh I chose evil and the priest is like no your beautiful soul was corrupted or something like that and she says oh Reagan and Reagan’s like oh Sharon this and he dies

Todd:the whole time this this long-ass scene is going on I’m sitting here thinking where are the neighbors hasn’t anybody stepped out to see what’s been going on this entire house

Craig:collapsed Yeah this is DC it’s not like it’s… And then they just walk off into the sunset and the indication that I got was like they’re going off now on their own journey and like because she’s special now I really don’t understand what the end is supposed to mean.

Todd:Well, she’s been identified as a healer and now she’s been put into his care and so they’re gonna go off and I guess start to heal people.

Craig:I guess but why would they have to hide anything?

Todd:I mean she could go back. I guess she’s older now She’s a couple days older. So now the doctors deemed it’s okay for her to start using her gift I would just go back to that clinic and start healing people there and kind of you know start small. So are we also supposed to believe there are other people like her? I was thinking like maybe maybe if you continue with this like Exorcist 3 like now they would have to assemble the Avengers or something maybe her next task is to go out and find the others and   then they can join forces and overcome evil for good. It’s a mess of a movie.

Craig:The Exorcist 3 is actually based on the actual sequel that the original writer of the novel   wrote. And   so I feel like they kind of abandoned this story. And Then there was another, so there was a sequel and then there were 2 prequels that were filmed at the same time. I don’t know, I saw 1 of them. I don’t remember anything about it. Then there was a TV series maybe last year, a couple of years ago, and it got really, really good critical reviews. Apparently, I didn’t watch it. I want to because Gina Davis played the lead and really spoiler alert yeah spoiler alert if you haven’t watched the series and you want to I   only know this because I read spoilers but it turns out that Gina Davis is Reagan and it kind of wraps up Reagan’s story in the first season and then they got a Second season which took it in a totally different direction and also still got really good critical response. They didn’t have the ratings. They got canceled. Anyway, you know in terms of this movie, I really don’t think it’s that bad. I thought that like If it weren’t a sequel to the iconic Exorcist, it was an okay movie. It was fine. I mean, I wasn’t bored. It   was confusing at times, but there were some interesting things going on. It had amazing, amazing talent as far as the actors are concerned. Now, when Reagan was playing Evil Pazuzu and Sexy Reagan at the end, it was pretty laughable. It was pretty bad. Beyond that, you know, Everybody who was involved with it says it was crap. It was a low point of my career. I Don’t think it’s that bad. I was going into it with really super low Expectations I wasn’t looking forward to watching it really And I watched it and I was like, it was   fine. You know, like,   I   wasn’t a terrible movie, but it just it by no means holds up to the original.  :00

Todd:I think I’m gonna, I’m gonna match what you say, but I’m gonna go a couple notches down from that. I think the movie’s pretty dumb and it’s pretty dumb in some extremely laughable ways that anybody should be able to see before they commit it to film. Or once you’ve committed it to film and you’ve put it together, you’ve got to know this movie’s in trouble and something’s got to be fixed and some of it just requires such a suspension of disbelief that it’s it’s supremely frustrating you know you have and I think  :00 – :25 I will also give them the benefit of the doubt that this movie’s been chopped up a lot. Obviously, if your original movie was 3 hours, you have to cut out a lot of stuff to get to 2, then there’s probably some stuff in there that might have clarified things, or some of these threads might have just been a little more consistent or a little more obvious, and they’re all we’re seeing is little fragments of it maybe. So I would say regardless of whether it’s a sequel to The Exorcist, my opinion is it’s a ridiculous movie but  :25 – :32 it is not the second worst movie ever made and that is what people are claiming. I mean the Razzies or whatever,  :32 – :32

Craig:you  :32 – :39

Todd:know, they put this at number 2. Like Ed Wood, number 1, which is also not the worst movie ever made. They got this  :39 – :40

Craig:in number  :40 – :47

Todd:2. Come on, it’s not that bad. Anybody who really thinks that has never really seen a truly bad movie.  :47 – :51

Craig:We’ve reviewed a dozen movies that are  :51 – :23

Todd:way worse than this, you know, this is competently filmed. And let me transition into some some nice things about it. You know, some of the acting is quite nice. They’re definitely well regarded actors and actresses in here. This might be the low point of many of their careers, but they all had good careers and it would have been so much worse if they weren’t in it. I will say that Richard Burton’s performance in here is 1 note. I mean he just stares off into space the entire time They said he had a drinking problem, I guess  :23 – :54 and was drunk on half this movie and that shows but it’s like he never got Any other direction? It just gives you no emotional range whatsoever, which makes it also hard. It’s like, man, this is not the guy you want at the party, you know, let alone to spend 2 hours with. But, you know, as I said earlier, there were some interesting visual things happening here. He was clearly trying to do something different. And I’m not gonna knock a person for trying to do something different and failing. The worst thing is just to do something completely  :54 – :09 boring. So I’m very mixed on it. I’m not gonna say it’s a good film at all. I’m not even gonna say it’s really a watchable film. It’s super confusing, but I don’t I’ve seen so much worse that I don’t feel Like I wasted complete 2 hours  :10 – :15

Craig:Yeah, and I think that we should do part 3 at some point because  :15 – :15

Todd:yeah  :16 – :48

Craig:people hold that in much higher regard. And I know I’ve seen it, but I don’t remember much about it. But it might be interesting to talk about. Anyway, at the end of the day, I don’t think that it’s as bad as its reputation makes it seem that it would be. I didn’t find it unwatchable. 2 hours for me is pushing it. I prefer a good hour, 20 hour, 30, but it was fine.  :49 – :51

Todd:I guess I’ll just leave it there.  :51 – :52

Craig:It was fine.  :53 – :21

Todd:I managed to stay awake this time barely so that was good. Well thank you again for listening to another episode. If you enjoyed this podcast, please share it with a friend. We have more sequels coming up for you to round out the month. And then we’re going to get into your requests again. So if you do have some requests and you haven’t submitted those in, go to our website, 2guys.red40net.com, or you can check out our Facebook page where we have pretty lively discussions going on there as well. Just leave a comment on 1 of our posts  :21 – :27 or post something to that page and let us know what you’d like us to review in the near future. Until that time, I’m Todd  :27 – :28

Craig:and I’m Craig  :28 – :30

Todd:with 2 Guys and a Chainsaw.

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