Sinister (2012)

Episode 76, 2 Guys and a Chainsaw Horror Movie Review Podcast

Craig:  Hello, and welcome to another edition of 2 Guys and a Chainsaw. I’m Craig.

Todd:  And I’m Todd. 

Craig:  And today, we have a special guest with us. Today, we have Jordan. Jordan is a former student of mine, actually, and, former student and current friend. Say hi, Jordan. 

Jordan:  Hi. 

Craig:  And, because, we had a guest Todd, we let her pick the movie. So, Jordan, why don’t you tell our listeners what movie we’re list are talking about today and why you picked it? 

Jordan:  I chose the 2012 movie sinister with Ethan Hawke and I chose it just because I love this movie. A lot of people just say they don’t like this movie, and I don’t understand why. Because when I watch scary movies, like, I’m easily startled as a person. I spook a lot. Like, I’m like a horse, basically. And, like, this, like, movie just really met my expectations because even though I startle easily, I’m not really scared or by a lot of horror movies. So this one, like, when I go into a movie, I’m looking to be disturbed, and, like, this one disturbed me. It really stuck with me, and that’s why I really like it.   So that’s why I chose it today. 

Todd:  Are you a disturbed individual? 

Jordan:  I don’t   know. I’m a psychiatrist. 

Craig:  Well, sinister is from 2,012, and, it was directed by Scott Derrickson. And I remember being really excited about this movie because they had a really good marketing campaign. I felt like the, trailers were really good and and intriguing and scary. And so I wanted to see it. And if I remember correctly, I think I saw it in the theater, and I wasn’t disappointed either. It’s a movie that does rely on jump scares, some of the time, but it’s kind of an intriguing story, as well. I mean, when it boils down to it, what we get is kind of, your demon story, demons meddling in the lives of of people. But I thought that it was a unique take, and some good performances in there.   Jordan, you mentioned, it stars Ethan Hawke. Ethan plays Ellison Oswald who is kind of a down on his luck true crime writer. He had written one book, Kentucky Blood, about a true crime that had done really, really well. And I think that was kind of his first big success. But after that success, he had written a couple more true crime novels that just hadn’t gone very well. In fact, it’s indicated that one of his books presented a theory that maybe got the actual killer off. And so, he’s not he’s not doing that great. And, what’s happening at the beginning of this movie is that he and his family, who consists of his wife, Tracy, played by Juliet Rylance, his daughter, Ashley, played by Claire Foley, and his son, Trevor, played by Michael Hall D’Addario, they are all moving to a new location so that he can write his, next book.   And the location that they’re moving to, unbeknownst to his wife and family, Ellison has bought this house where this murder has taken place. And and that’s how the movie opens. We see this 8 millimeter footage of, I think, if I remember correctly, 4 people being hung from a tree. And it turns out that this is the tree that’s in the backyard of this house that they’re moving into. The movie relies pretty heavily on this 8 millimeter footage, and I think that that’s one of the strengths of the movie. This 8 millimeter footage is is is really unsettling because I don’t know if it’s just the nature of the way that it looks on the 8 millimeter film, but it looks very real. You know, 8 millimeter came out, I think, sometime in the 19 sixties, and that was really the first time that amateur filmmakers had had an opportunity to shoot their own stuff. The movie kind of explores that.   There’s all these different snuff films throughout the movie, and we see the first one at the very beginning. And it’s troubling, this family, including children, being hung from a tree. And it’s difficult to watch, and we we see several more of those throughout. And that’s that’s kind of the the setup is that they are there in this place where these murders took place. And the twist is that in this murder, and we find out subsequently that in this series of murders that have all been captured on 8 millimeter film, an entire family is killed, but one child goes missing and is not found. What did you all think of, the the whole 8 millimeter thing? I thought it was really effective. 

Jordan:  I thought that was very effective to just start off the film like that, And it just gave it, like, a very disturbing theme. And, like, while starting off like that, I feel like it’s almost a little ballsy just because it’s like what if the rest of the movie doesn’t live up to this one, you know, 30 second snuff film at the beginning? But, I mean, I thought it set up a great theme throughout, and I thought it was effective. 

Craig:  Yeah. I agree with Jordan. I mean, that was one of the things that the, marketing campaign capitalized on was this 8 millimeter stuff. And I agree. I think that it was kind of ballsy to start it out with such intense imagery. Unless you’re gonna maintain that throughout, it could have fallen flat thereafter. But that same sort of tension and that same sort of unease that was created with that very first opening scene, I thought that, they did a good job. I mean, there was there was good payoff.   It wasn’t just the hit you once, and it’s over. And so I thought that was good too. 

Todd:  Yeah. I think the thing that’s creepiest about the 8 millimeter, especially to us today, is the silence. You’re seeing these videos and we’re we’re so used to seeing videos with sound, that we’re really able to transport ourselves there. Whereas and and I actually have I don’t know about you, Craig. Jordan, you probably don’t. But I have 8 milli I have 8 millimeter, video of me as a kid. I there’s actually some 8 millimeter of me shortly after I was born. So I can actually go back and look at some of these film strips.   But the thing about it is there’s no sound. They did make some sort of experimental 8 millimeter where they had a magnetic sound, track at the edge. It’s pretty rare. Most of these film strips when you watch them all you hear is that click click click click click click of the projector. And so you you get this simultaneous, you get this voyeuristic quality to it, where you’re looking in on this family. But frustratingly, I think just there’s some part of you that can’t hear what’s going on, and that, I just adds the unnatural it’s like it’s natural, but it’s unnatural, and it sets you a little unease. Does that make sense? 

Craig:  Yeah. 

Todd:  And, this first one, you know, is just creepy because we’re seeing these 4 people there and they’re Todd, they’re bound and they have 4, you know, hoods over them. I mean, you can’t really see them. It’s from a distance and then slowly a limb gets cut off on one end where the ropes are strung across and so as that limb falls the 4 of them slowly rise into the air and you see them kick. But, you know, what you don’t hear is the screaming, the noise that they would be making, any of that stuff. It just plays out silently in front of you and it just creates this distance that that even makes you feel like you’re watching it, I don’t know, through a distant window, unable to do anything about it. And every single one of these film strips that we see in the movie are like this. It just makes it even more unsettling. I thought it was really good. 

Craig:  Yeah. And not only is it the whole sound thing, but there’s just something about the video quality that, kinda makes you feel like you’re removed from it. I mean, it’s just a little bit I don’t know. It’s it’s a little bit jumpier than digital or or even more advanced film. And the thing you know, like, we see several of these throughout, and they take place in different time periods. And I I think that just the the quality of the film, like you said, kind of makes you feel removed. It’s almost dreamlike in a way, but night not just dreamlike, but nightmarish. Like, it’s it’s, you you feel like an observer of something that you should be intervening in. 

Todd:  Yeah. 

Craig:  But you’re you’re you’re just that far removed from it. And and I thought that was really cool. 

Jordan:  I think the, like, super 8 films can also almost create a scarier effect for modern audiences too because, you know, just based off the film, we don’t know, you know, what the time period is. And so for, you know, a modern audience like me, I mean, I barely remember only having a landline. I barely remember, you know, not having a computer. So today, I feel like since we have all these connections to help and stuff like that, it is scarier to see something that could be back then where they wouldn’t have been able to call for help and stuff like that. And, I mean, we later find out that this murder is fairly recent, but, you know, the quality of the film gives it that aura that, like, we don’t really know when it was. And I remember seeing this in the theater. My dad took me and my sister, and I was probably 14. My sister was 16, and the the movie just starts off like this.   And I look over at my dad, and he’s like, oh, Todd. Like, what what   did I take my kids to? 

Craig:  That’s awesome. 

Todd:  You bring up an interesting point there actually about the medium. I mean the way that we get introduced to the the Super eight movies later on is that as Craig said, Ellison who is writing this story about this actual crime has taken place unbeknownst to his family, they are actually renting out the house that this family lived in. And part of the suspense in this movie is is is actually seeing how long it’s gonna take for him to reveal to his family, you know, they’re not gonna be happy about this. But, he goes up into the attic as he’s exploring, and he finds this box. It’s marked home movies. And when he opens it up, there’s the projector inside along with a stack of these films. And that’s the thing about Super 8 that is so different for modern audiences is that this wasn’t an immediate thing. You know, you can’t go out and shoot it and then immediately rewatch it.   This is something that takes time and care to preserve and to to develop. So you shoot something, right? And then you take it to a place, you get it developed, you bring it back and then you’ve got Todd store it and anytime you want to watch it, you have to haul out this projector, darken your living room, set up a sheet and and get it going. And so really anything that you record on Super 8, the fact that it exists at all means that, you know, a lot of care was taken, to preserve it and so there’s a preciousness I guess to these films that you just when he opens the box and you look at them, you know, okay, these are significant videos for some reason. And then when you see the content of these films, to think that somebody thought that this this was worth recording and developing and saving and labeling carefully and putting in a box and and going through the trouble of pulling on watching later, just is is way creepier. Right? It’s it’s that it’s that serial killer who really relishes in what he’s doing. 

Craig:  Well, and that’s part of the mystery. I mean, you know, the we kinda jumped over some of the setup. It Todd doesn’t really matter. You know, they’re here in this town. The law enforcement isn’t particularly happy that they’re there because they know what he does, and they know that he hasn’t really painted law enforcement well in his books in the past. 

Clip:  Well, you know what? I do have a couple extra copies of Kentucky Blood in my office. If If you want me to get one out and sign it for   you, I’ll do that. No. Thank you, sir.   Alright. Is it the writing?   More Todd content. You don’t seem to care much for our profession.   Not everybody in your profession gets it right.   I’ve read your books, neither do   you. Right.   Oh, you got it right in Kentucky. Blood. I’ll give you that. It’s fine piece of writing. But, cold Denver morning, you got it wrong. Blood diner?   Heck, that wasn’t my fault.   Right? Your bad theory, you have to kill or go free. You ruin people’s lives. Now this town doesn’t need that. It needs to heal. It needs to forget. I sure don’t want that circus that you bring with you.   Well, there’s a missing girl involved here. 

Craig:  The the wife is is not particularly happy because, you know, when he’s working on these books, it takes a toll on their family. You know? The the people in the towns where they live when he’s writing this book, it’s not easy for the kids in school, and the wife talks about how she gets dirty looks in the supermarket. And so there’s all this tension anyway. And then like you said, he he finds this box and he starts watching these films. They’re moving, of course, so he’s taking a box up to the attic, but he goes up to this attic and there’s just this lone cardboard box sitting up in the attic. And he’s, you know, immediately taken by it because why would it be there? And then he finds all these films, and he starts watching them, and it’s obvious from the beginning that these are snuff films. All of them well, not all of them. Most of them start out innocently.   You know? It just it looks like home movies. I mean, when he when he pops in the first one, it just looks like somebody’s, you know, old fashioned home movie, and that’s great. But then after a time, the film cuts, and it cuts to these really disturbing scenes of these families that we had seen before getting murdered. He sets up this room. He’s got kinda like a in his office, it’s almost like a war room. You know? It’s it’s the classic detective stuff where he’s got ISI. Exactly. He’s got crime scene photos and all maps and all kinds of stuff set up. 

Todd:  And he’s writing, like, really obvious questions everywhere, like, who murdered her? And who is this person? It’s 

Jordan:  kinda cheesy at some point. 

Craig:  It is a little cheesy because it’s obviously for us. You know, it’s obviously for, the audience because he writes down who made the film and and then 

Jordan:  I think that’s, like, so true to, like, Ethan Hawke’s character though in this film because I think he’s the perfect antagonist. 1, because he does everything wrong. His family just eventually meets their demise because of him. And 2, just his character, like, as a whole is so pretentious, and he just takes himself so seriously. Like, he always wears that card again. I don’t know. I can just go in on Ethan Hawke. He always wears that cardigan no matter, like, what it is outside.   Like, he’s always just in a cardigan and sweatpants, maybe jeans once. 

Todd:  Yeah. 

Jordan:  And then his glasses make him look so pretentious, and his hair is always just, like, that perfectly, like, tousled, but, like, also decent looking. He’s like that guy in college who just, like, minors in poetry for, like, offense giggles, takes himself so seriously, like, who murdered her? Well, no kidding, Ethan. 

Todd:  That’s what we’re here to find out, buddy. Yeah. 

Craig:  Yeah. You’re absolutely right. And that’s the thing. You’re you’re right, Jordan. I mean, it’s difficult to feel sorry for them. Like you said, I mean, this doesn’t turn out well, and that’s actually one of the things that I like about the movie. You know, I like horror movies that, really go dark and and things don’t just wrap up nicely in the end. But you’re right.   You do get frustrated with him because he finds this box, and he’s watching all of these videos. And and, you know, there’s one of them where he sees it seems like it’s the seventies or the eighties, and he sees these people, like, having a picnic, but then he sees them, like, the whole family, like, chained up in a car. Yeah. And then the the car gets set on fire, and, of course, they all die. And then, one of them, the one that was, I think, maybe the most disturbing for me, was one that was labeled pool party 1966 or something like that. And you see all these people having fun in the pool, and then it cuts, and you see that they’re all, like, chained to these, lawn chairs. And the lawn chairs just get dragged into the pool, and they all, drown there. 

Jordan:  I thought the most disturbing one for me and especially for my father, who I was sitting next to for 2 hours during this movie, was the lawnmower 1.   Yeah. That Yeah. 

Craig:  That that one Todd. That one comes later in the movie. I feel like they saved that for later because it is. You know, like, you you see this family, and then all of a sudden, you’re just watching this nighttime kind of lit tracking shot of this lawnmower just going over the grass. And then out of nowhere into the frame comes this person laying on the ground, and the lawnmower just goes right over him. 

Jordan:  Yeah. And there’s 

Craig:  and there’s not yeah. Oh my gosh. And and Ethan Hawke jumps in the movie, and and I totally jumped. I guess these 8 millimeter films, the filmmakers filmed them all, and Ethan Hawke knew what was going on. You know? Like, he knew what the premise of the movie was, but he didn’t see, any of the films until they were actually shooting it. And so his reactions on film are actually his reactions to seeing these for the first time. And and it and it’s good. You know? He reacts much in the same way that we do.   You know? He looks away as soon as that person comes into frame on the lawnmower 1. But it it’s difficult to feel sympathy for the guy because the whole time, I’m thinking call the police. 

Jordan:  You know? Like, you 

Craig:  know, he finds the box. That’s super weird. And then he finds all these snuff films. That’s super weird. And I get it. You know, they established that he doesn’t have a good relationship with law enforcement. And and I understand that, you know, if he were to turn these tapes over to the police, and then that he would lose access to them. I get that.   But there’s even one point in the movie where he said I think he says out loud, maybe just talking to himself, that the killer brought this box back and left it here. Why would he do that? Well, if you think there’s some killer out there who’s planting things in your house, 

Jordan:  call the police. Get out of the house. 

Craig:  Exactly. You know, he’s he’s got this wife and 2 kids, you know, young kids, you would think. But, you know, of course, if he did, then the movie would be over and and that wouldn’t be very exciting. 

Todd:  But Another way that you don’t really feel terribly sympathetic for him, although this Todd me is a fault of the film, is this parallel, tension that we have between him and his family. Like like you said Jordan, he comes off as really douchey and obsessive about his work to the point where his whole family is kind of tired of it. Yet, it starts out I mean they know what they’re in for. I mean this is this guy’s living. He writes these true crime novels, and they keep, you know, having these conversations with him. 

Clip:  His first day at school, Ellison, and he’s already hearing the grisly details of your mystery. Wait.   Wait. What did he hear?   Exactly what he drew. That your book is about a family that was hung? Yeah. Christ, Ellison.   But that’s all he heard?   That’s not enough.   Look, I’m sorry he had to find out like this. Alright? I am. But come on. I mean, it was bound to happen.   Really? That’s your response? You think that makes it okay? No.   It doesn’t make it okay. Alright? Nothing about what happened to these people is okay. But bad things happen to good people, and they still need to have their story told. They deserve that much.   You’re a real man of the people.   Oh, come 

Todd:  For some reason, he’s supposed to keep from the kids, exactly what he’s writing about so that they don’t get disturbed, which is an almost impossible task, Which, you know, just doesn’t even seem very believable. But I feel like it takes great pains Todd the point where I was rolling my eyes, the first part of this movie, where we’re constantly being reminded how much his family doesn’t like what he’s doing or at least he’s walking on eggshells around them. I was just as annoyed at his family as I was at him. You know, I think you’re you’re supposed to feel that he is really putting them out and he’s really getting selfish. I felt like his family’s expectations were completely off the wall. 

Jordan:  Yeah. The mom’s only one, what is the mom’s name, first of all? Is it Tracy? 

Craig:  Yeah. It’s Tracy. 

Jordan:  I’m pretty sure they only say it, like, once. Did anyone else find it just very random that she was British? 

Craig:  Yeah. A little bit. 

Jordan:  Like, any every time I watch that, she’s always just, like, screaming, Ellison. And I just get so, like, tripped up by it. But her only purpose is just to yell at Allison and just say,   I don’t want to get sour looks from the neighbors anymore. I want to go to the store in peace. And if weird things are happening, we need to get out of here. That’s her   only purpose is just to yell at Allison. She’s so annoying about it, but then again, she’s the only voice of reason 

Craig:  Right. 

Jordan:  In this entire film. 

Craig:  Yeah. I, you know, I wasn’t really bothered by the family. I because the the the feeling that I got was that this was kind of a last ditch effort. Like, his career is is is bottoming out, and, he really needs to write something good if if they’re gonna be able to continue to live the way that they wanna live. And that’s the other thing too. You kind of don’t feel all that sorry for them because you know that he is just in this for the fortune and fame. In fact, you know, I feel like we’re kind of being critical of the movie. I really do like the movie.   I think it’s a good movie, But, it’s hard to feel for them because even though, like, you know, the wife at one point says, if this goes sour like the last time, I’m taking the kids and we’re going to our sisters. But yet she hangs in there. They’re still there. I mean, if he really is that douchey, just leave. Yeah. And and there’s one point there’s there’s one point where he sits down, and I think this says something about him as well that he sits down and watches his old interviews, from from when he from when he was famous. And not only that, you know, I don’t know if this was intentional or not, but he’s watching it on VHS, and the VHS tape is all kind of warped and stuff, which indicates to me that he’s watched this, like, hundreds of times. Like, he’s worn out the tape.   And, in in the interview, the guy is like, so why do you do this? Why do you do this? And he’s like, fortune and fame. Oh, no. Just kidding. Justice. And then the guy is like, well, at the end of the day, do you feel better about the fortune and fame, or do you feel better about the justice? And he, like, gets a real serious look on his face. Oh, the justice for sure. And you know that’s total bullshit. You know? Like, he really is in it for the fortune and fame, and that’s that’s why he’s there, and that’s why he’s doing all of this.   And that’s kind of why he allows his family to potentially be endangered because of of the potential reward. And, so it’s it’s difficult to sympathize with him as a character, especially when not only does he find all this, like, all these tapes, which are horrifying, but weird stuff is going on around the house from the very beginning. You know, he’s hearing bumps in the night. You know, he’s hearing bumps in the attic. And he goes up, and at one point, he finds a scorpion up in the attic, which has some relevance later on when he kind of figures out what’s going on. Same thing. He he he’ll wake up in the middle of the night, and the wife has made a big deal about the fact that his office door where he does all his work always needs to be locked, and it never is. That’s the 

Jordan:  other thing that’s really interesting. 

Craig:  Like, she makes this huge deal out of how it has to be locked all the time. The kids can’t get in there, and it’s never locked. He’ll wake up in the middle of the night, and these snuff films will be playing unexpectedly. You know? At at one point, the bumps in the night apparently turn out to be the daughter. Like, I feel like that’s their first night there, and she she says she can’t find the bathroom, and so he helps her find the bathroom and whatnot. Another time the 

Jordan:  son who just has those night terrors all the time. 

Craig:  Yeah. And that was another one of the images from the trailer. Like, Ethan Hawke is is, you know, skulking around his house in the dark, and he just sees this box, like, in a door Craig, and, like, the camera just kind of pans in on the box. And then his son just, like, flops backwards out of the box in a really unnatural and unsettling way. 

Jordan:  Yeah. Who, when they’re asleep, is, like, rising backwards out of a box? 

Craig:  How do you get into 

Jordan:  a box backwards? Like, you have to be crouched down. You can’t just, like, suddenly appear backwards out of it. 

Craig:  To be fair, it’s really effectively creepy. Like, I I 

Jordan:  don’t know. 

Craig:  That was one of the, that was one of the things from the trailer. I was like, oh, man. This movie is I wanna see this movie. And it is freaky, and they explain it away. You know, the kid had had night terrors when he was younger. He hasn’t had them for a while, but, you know, now that they’ve moved, maybe it’s the trauma of moving. Ellison finds, at some point, he hears all these big, huge bumps in the night from the attic, and they’re these big, loud bumps. I I really don’t even know how he explained that away because when he goes upstairs, it turns out that there’s a snake.   Apparently, this snake has been making all this noise, but he finds the snake underneath, like, a box lid, like, a cardboard box lid. And underneath there are all these childlike drawings of the various murder scenes that he’s seen, on these snuff films. And and still despite all this, he doesn’t say anything to his wife, you know, like it’s as though he just goes on with this. I I don’t even know how to justify it. Like, how he wouldn’t think that his that he or his family were in danger. 

Todd:  Well, I’ll tell you how I initially justified it. And that was that the movie does seem to make a big deal, at least initially, about his drinking. And, he you know, he’s downing whiskey as he’s watching this. His wife at one point makes a note, comment like you’re already through a bottle. You know, we’re not even we haven’t even been here a week. And I thought there’s this part of him. Okay. He’s kind of alcoholic and he knows that he is.   And so he’s struggling with himself, like, are these things that I’m looking for real or are they apart like an alcoholic who knows he’s an alcoholic and knows that he might be seeing things. And I You know, when I first saw this film, I actually thought that that was like, maybe we’re supposed to think this is real, but it’s actually happening in his head. How much of this is real? How much of this is, you know, his own personal breakdown, due to the alcohol and due to his mental problems that he’s imposing upon this. And so, you know, he’s not actually seeing these things. He’s not actually hearing these things. And maybe he’s even imagining himself wandering through the house because this guy can do about anything in this house. And it doesn’t wake the family up for anything. 

Craig:  Right. 

Todd:  And the other thing this guy cannot do to save his life is turn on a damn light switch. Oh my Todd. Every single time he’s plotting around here in absolute darkness and it’s what makes this movie really creepy by the way. It’s very effectively done in the dark. But the problem with it is any given moment he’s about 2 steps away from a light switch and he chooses to just wander around in the dark. 

Jordan:  Why does he why does he even work at night? Because his kids are at school during the day. I don’t know what his wife does with her life because not enough attention is put into work. But he never works during the day. You very rarely see him work during the day. He’s just, like, under the cover of nightfall, burning the midnight oil. 

Craig:  Right. Well, and and to be it doesn’t, you know, of course, you know, darkness and shadow, all of that’s very creepy and stuff. But, I I have to say that there were several times throughout the movie where I was like, I have no idea what’s going on because I can’t see anything. Yeah. It was so dark. I had no idea, what was happening. But, you know, what it boils down to oh, and, Todd, what you said about the drinking, I mean, it’s not like that is, subtle. You know? At some point in the movie, he makes a friend with a deputy who this deputy is a fan of his, and, he has this, this moment where the deputy is like 

Clip:  You know there’s a page in your books where you’re always saying nice things about all the people that helped you out?   The acknowledgments? Yeah.   Well yeah. And and in each one, there’s always, like, a line that says, you know, I I couldn’t have done this without the tireless efforts of deputy so and so from the local police department. Right. Well, I, you know, I could be, like, you know, your deputy so and so. You know? I mean, if you don’t already have one. Yeah.   Yeah. Yeah. There are a few things you could do for me, actually.   Really? Yeah.   This could be perfect.   Do you   have a notepad?   Yes.   Alright. Do you need a pen? 

Craig:  Yes. And so he does start to help him out, and and and they become friendly. And at some point, the deputy comes over, and the deputy figures stuff out. There has been this series of murders, and nobody has put together that they are connected. But they are connected in that every family that has been murdered has at some point lived in the home of another one of these families that has been murdered. And nobody has put this together yet, and that’s what Ellison is putting together. And that’s why he knows that he’s onto something big. Like, if he could crack this, it really could.   At some point, he says, this could be my in cold blood. You know, he knows this is a big deal. But when the deputy gets involved and and Ellison starts having the deputy do some detective work for him, the deputy figures it out too. But at one point, the deputy comes over, and Ellison’s like, all this weird stuff has been happening. Have there been any reports about weird stuff happening in the house? Were there any weird stories about the family that lived here? And the deputy is like, no. But every time I’ve come over here, there’s been an empty bottle of whiskey in your office. Like like, dude, maybe lay off the whiskey a little bit. 

Todd:  Yeah. That deputy is smarter than he appears at first, isn’t he? Like Yeah. 

Craig:  He is. 

Todd:  He’s a little dumb, but then he sits down and has that conversation with them. You’re like, well, this guy is the smartest person in the 

Jordan:  movie. Yeah. 

Craig:  He’s he’s not stupid. It’s funny because, you know, he looks kinda I mean, he’s a good looking guy. He looks kinda dopey, and you expect him to be dopey. But at some point, he’s like, dude, I’ve got a degree in criminology. I know when murders are connected. Like, he really does. He knows what’s going on. And, you know, throughout all of this, everything that we’ve been talking about, you know, we talked about the kid in the box and how that was weird, but strange things have been going on.   The the daughter is allowed to, paint, on her walls, but eventually she paints something outside her walls, and she says that she didn’t do it. It was the little girl who used to live here, the the little girl who is missing, the one that didn’t appear in the murder tape. Also, the the more closely that Ellison looks at these videos, he starts to see this ghostly figure in the background. Okay. So it ends up that it’s this demon, named Ba’ul. But when you first see him, it’s just kind of this ghostly image in the background all the but with these dark, almost, like, painted on that triangular eyes kind of. It it’s so funny. You know, you read things about how films are made, and I’m just so surprised sometimes.   Like, they the the filmmakers wanted I guess the director, I presume, wanted a really creepy image for this guy, so he just did a Google search. Like, he just he just Google searched, like, creepy images, and he found one that he liked, and he contacted the person who owned the image, and he bought the rights to the image. Like, I would never think of of stuff like that. And, the the same thing for the soundtrack. He wanted a really weird, bizarre sounding soundtrack, so he just looked for stuff online and he found stuff online and he contacted the owners and he bought the rights. Like, it’s just so weird how these things come together. 

Jordan:  But Did y’all notice that, like, each of the Snuff films, they all have their own different soundtrack? 

Craig:  Yeah. Yeah. 

Jordan:  I noticed that in, like, each time I can’t decide if I love or hate it because I mean, I really love it because I feel like each different soundtrack just matches kinda what’s going on and it does give, like, a creepier feel. But then at the same time, you know, the soundtrack always ends, like, when the snuff film shuts off.   And I’m like, well, I feel like this doesn’t give   a realistic feel because snuff films don’t have sound. 

Craig:  That’s right. Right. No. Yeah. No. I thought that the score in general was, was really good. It it’s it’s spooky. It’s it’s it’s unusual.   It’s and and it’s not just during the Snuff films either, but, even during the rest of the movie, it’s just kind of a really bizarre soundtrack, and and I thought that it was good and effective. 

Todd:  I think that the the movie wouldn’t have been as scary without the music Todd be quite honest. Yeah. Normally, that’s a criticism I have of a film that relies too heavily on the music to tell you when you’re supposed to be scared. But in this case, I somehow, it just really worked. And I don’t think it would have been as scary without that, you know, if we had just been watching these silently. It ratches this film does a really good job of ratcheting up tension, but really not giving you a release very often. You know, there there are a lot of moments where you’re expecting a jump scare. You’re expecting to see something in the background.   You’re expecting this this this this scene to go somewhere and you’re just right on the edge right on the edge waiting for it to happen, and it doesn’t. And the the music really contributes to that. And, again, normally, these are criticisms I would have of a film. But for some reason, it really works in this movie for me. 

Craig:  Yeah. I I I think so too. I mean, you know, all the things that we’re talking about, it it seems like we’re being kinda critical of things. But the truth of the matter is when everything comes together, it works. You know? It’s a spooky film. It’s a a suspenseful film. You know, I think I think we basically have to, at this point, get to the fact that it becomes a demon movie. Ellison, he is, hooked up by the deputy with this occult expert because Ellison sees some symbols in the painted on the walls in the in the snuff films.   And so the deputy hooks him up with this guy from the occult who is played by Vincent D’Onofrio, who is uncredited, I think. After a little bit of investigation, this guy tells him. 

Clip:  It’s a symbol, associated with the worship of a pagan deity. A deity? What kind of deity? A a very obscure one dating back to Babylonian times named Bughul, the eater of children. 

Todd:  Did you say eater? 

Clip:  Yes. Of of children. 

Craig:  I think, actually, literally, the name just translates to boogeyman. If I remember correctly, it’s something like through images, so paintings or or pictures or photographs or videos or whatever, the images are his gateway into our world. And he can come into our world and he can possess the vulnerable and children are very vulnerable. And then some sort of blood sacrifice is required for whatever ritual this is. That’s basically where it leads up to. We see that, the little girl, the the daughter, you know, she’s she’s drawn or somebody has drawn this image of Baghoul on her wall. And and and so we know everything is kind of coming together. And then we start seeing I I almost forgot about this.   At one point, Ellison is walking around. It’s another time. It’s the middle of the night. The film has come on, and he’s walking around the house. And all of a sudden, these ghost children or what appear to be ghost children appear, and they’re I don’t even know how to describe them. It’s it’s not gory, but they’re in this weird makeup where it looks like they’re 

Jordan:  ghoulish and, you know, fast ly. 

Craig:  Yeah. 

Todd:  And at times, it does look a little low budget and cheap, to be honest. 

Jordan:  Yeah. I thought that scene could have been done better. Like, I thought there was, like, a better way possibly to convey that all of these, like, dead kids are around. I thought it was just odd though because it was, like, him walking around trying to avoid all of you know, unbeknowingly, like, avoiding all of these kids who just exist in this ghost dimension where apparently gravity doesn’t work well either. 

Craig:  Right. I I liked the cinematography. Like, it was kinda neat because it seemed like the kids were moving in a kind of ephemeral slow way. I liked that, but the the makeup, was a little odd. Like, I I couldn’t tell what they were going for. And and what I read was that they really, really, really were going for a PG 13 on this movie. So What? Yeah. They wanted PG 13 for this movie bad, and so there’s very little gore.   I mean, at the very end, there’s blood on the walls and stuff. But other than that, there’s very little gore. There’s no swearing. There’s no sex. They really wanted a PG 13, but they ended up getting an artist based on the contents alone. So I don’t know. Maybe, you know, maybe if they hadn’t been thinking about that, maybe the the kids would have been gory or or something. I don’t know.   But, you know, it 

Jordan:  of gore and the lack of things like sex and cursing and stuff like that that we perceive as bad does work very well, though. 

Craig:  Oh, yeah. I agree entirely. 

Todd:  It’s it’s you didn’t notice it. Yeah. 

Jordan:  Yeah. I didn’t even think of that, but now that I think of it. Right. 

Craig:  Yeah. No. And it’s it’s totally effective, and it it’s still really scary. I mean and and there’s certainly a lot of implied violence. And and and those snuff films, they are disturbing. You know? I can understand why it got the r anyway because it is just it’s it’s really, uncomfortable to watch. But, you know, so he starts seeing these ghost children. Finally, eventually, after all this crazy stuff has gone down, I think what tips it off is he wakes up in the night and he goes and it sounds like the projector is running, but he goes to where the projector should be, and it’s not there.   And so he walks out into the hallway, and he sees the light from the projector coming down through the entrance to the attic. And he climbs up to the attic and just pokes his head up through the attic floor, and he sees for the first time these ghost children. And they’re sitting there watching a film strip, and it’s the demon, Baghoul, in the film strip. And then the the demon pops his face down right in front of his face like like he’s there in the attic. And it’s a jump scare, but it’s a good one. You know? 

Jordan:  I clap. 

Craig:  And that’s, he he takes the the film strips, and he takes them out in the backyard, and burns them, and the 

Jordan:  wife comes out. What the 

Todd:  hell are you doing? 

Jordan:  We have to leave here. What’s the matter? 

Clip:  What’s happened? 

Todd:  You were right. Right. I made a mistake. We should have never come to this house. We have to leave 

Jordan:  now. Oh, you’re freaking me out here. 

Todd:  Get the kids. Pack the car. We have to leave. 

Craig:  And I thought for sure there would be something that would prevent them from leaving, which which which seems to be the case in these types of, like, haunted house movies and stuff. I thought that they would end up having to go back to the house, but they didn’t. They they go back, I guess, to their old house that they hadn’t sold yet. I feel like this is the point of the movie where you’re supposed to think, oh, good. They got away. But, of course, you know, no. Of course, they don’t get away. And and that’s when that’s when the deputy calls him and says, I’ve made this connection.   Every person all these murders that are connected, they had all previously lived in the house of somebody else who had been murdered. So the implication is that you can try to run away from it, but once once it’s on you, you’re you’re done. 

Todd:  Yeah. It’s kind of like it follows. 

Craig:  Right. Right. Right. So they’re in their new house, but Ellison goes I don’t know why, but he goes up to the attic in the new house or the old house, whatever. And the box of films is there despite the fact that he burned it and we saw him burned it. Burn it. It’s there. And not only is it there, but when he looks through it, he finds an envelope that says extended cuts, and he pulls out these little pieces of of filmstrip.   And we’d seen earlier because one of the times that he had been, looking at the film strips, he had paused it on a frame of Bagul, and the film had burned up. So he had looked up on the Internet how to splice the film. And so he splices these extended cut films in, and what is revealed is that the missing child from each of these unexplained murders is actually the one who perpetrated the murders. 

Todd:  And is filming it. Yep. 

Craig:  Right. Exactly. He’s watching it, and then we can tell that all of a sudden, he’s getting very drowsy. And that was something I I don’t remember who explained it. I think it was the deputy that explained it, that most of these murders, the people who had been killed had been drugged. And the reason that that was important was because that meant that the actual murder itself itself didn’t require that much physical strength, didn’t require that much exertion. And now that all makes sense because it’s kids who are doing it. So they don’t have the physical strength, so they have Todd, debilitate their their victims in some way.   And Ellison is, you know, acting all groggy. He picks up his drink, and there’s a note right by it that says, Todd night, daddy. And as he’s about to pop out or to pass out, excuse me, he sees his daughter standing there in the room with her, and she says, I’m glad you made the movies longer, daddy. They’re much better this way. And that leads up to that leads up to the conclusion, which, you know, it’s not like it’s entirely unpredictable. In fact, watching the movie again, I don’t remember how I felt about it the first time, but watching the movie again, I thought, oh, man, this is so predictable. I don’t think that the first time that I saw it, I necessarily felt that way. I think it’s just knowing what the the ultimate conclusion is.   I felt like this time around, it was predictable, but I don’t know if I felt that way the last time. But why don’t you all explain what happens at the end? 

Jordan:  Basically, Ethan Hawke wakes up and he his daughter has just set up this, like, elaborate, like, Dexter kill room in the living room with, like, all these plastic tarps. I don’t know where this, like, 7 year old is getting all of this plastic. But you see Ethan Hawke or it’s Ethan Hawke’s eyes opening, I’m pretty sure. And you see the mom and Trevor, you know, like, bound and gagged with, like, duct tape and stuff, asleep. I’m pretty sure. I don’t think they’re awake. And then Ethan Hawke wakes up, and he is also bound and gagged. And then it’s, like, storming out because, of course, it is.   And Ashley is standing over them with her, like, paint smock on and then with just an ax. And you don’t really see her do anything about you know, you don’t see her kill them or anything, but it’s pretty implied because afterwards, there’s just paintings all over the walls in blood, and I’m pretty sure she paints the demonic symbol of Bughuul on the wall too. And then, I you see Ashley, and then she sees all of the other, like, ghost children. And it’s the very, very ending is on the super 8 film. And so she sees the ghost children, and then they start looking all scared all of a sudden and then they run away and then you turn around you see Baghoul and Baghoul takes Ashley and then they disappear. 

Todd:  Yeah. I think the ending is pretty effective and it’s pretty haunting. And like you said, I do feel it’s predictable that something’s gonna happen to them because just the nature of these films. I mean, it’s broadcast from the very beginning. It’s always a family of 4 or 5 people. And, of course, he’s a family with 4 or 5 people. So you knew it was gonna end here somewhere, but I honestly how it was gonna get there I thought was entirely unpredictable I have to say that especially the first time I watched this movie, I was really wondering if how much of this was real and how much of this was just his own breakdown because it takes so long to get supernatural. I think the first moment he gets supernatural is at least halfway through the movie and that’s when we see he has a freeze frame of the ghoul in one of the he has recorded, with video, some some of these film clips so that he can analyze them a little better in his computer.   And we see a freeze frame of the ghoul and Moi’s talking to somebody on the phone. Behind him, unbeknownst to him, we see the ghoul’s face, like, turn and look towards him and then turn and look away before he, you know, turns his head back. That’s the first moment at which it it starts to feel supernatural. Even from that point on, I was kinda wondering, yeah, is that where this is going? Is this really gonna be a demon movie or is this really gonna be something else? Or is he even going to turn out to to, you know, kill his own family somehow? You know, I I felt like it might be going that direction as well. There were a number of different directions that could have gone. And, the movie kept it pretty open, I thought, until toward the end. Yeah.   So in   that in that way, I thought I thought it was a little less predictable. 

Jordan:  Looking back, I do agree that, you know, it is predictable. But I think the first time that I watched it, there were just so many different directions that it could have gone. And I also think it was almost a good plot twist to have Ashley be the killer and not Trevor. Because, I mean, that plot twist is revealed even before they move. I mean, it’s probably revealed halfway or 2 thirds of the way through the movie that she’s the one being contacted by these ghost children and he’s just kind of under Baghoul’s spell. But I thought it would have been more predictable almost to have Trevor do it, because Trevor’s got this, like, emo, like, my chemical romance phase going on where he just probably hates his family, and he’s in that phase. 

Craig:  No. I thought the end of the movie was really effective too. You know, I think that it’s, clever and brave when filmmakers decide to go with the bleak at the end of a horror movie, and, you don’t see that terribly often. Usually, the at least one of the good guys gets away, and you’ve got the potential for a sequel with your main cast and not the case here. There there was a sequel to this movie, and I’ve seen it. And I don’t really remember all that much about it other than that I thought it was just meh. Jordan, have you seen it? 

Jordan:  I have not, but I watched the trailer, and I read the plot online, and it does sound meh. It doesn’t sound as good. I feel like a horror sequel sequel, especially horror. Like, the sequel never really is as good. And so I feel like it definitely was one of those that they threw together to make some money off the franchise. 

Craig:  Yeah. I think so. And I think that part of the reason that the sequel didn’t work as well for me was because, there wasn’t any mystery. You know? Like we we knew who Ba’ Gul was. We knew what was going on, and so it just it it wasn’t that, effective. But, this movie in and of itself is a standalone film. As much as we, you know, were a little bit critical about some elements of it, I I think it’s good. I think it’s a good movie.   I think it’s suspenseful. I think there’s good mystery. I think that there are good jump scares. The demon himself, is pretty scary, and I think that part of the reason that he’s pretty scary is you don’t really see that much of him. You know, he’s kinda kept in shadow, or in these fuzzy images. I like it. I do too. Yeah. 

Jordan:  I’ve always liked this film. I came out of the theater. I’m like, that was awesome. And my dad’s like, that wasn’t good at all. I don’t like that. My sister had nightmares. And my dad doesn’t like this film. My entire family at my dad’s, they don’t really like this film.   But one time, we all just watched it, like, 5 times in one day. So I don’t no. My family were one that, like, we can’t just sit down and watch a movie the first time. So, like, I sat down and watched this movie. I was gonna watch it with my stepmom, but but then she was doing other things. She couldn’t pay attention so we, like, I finished it, then we immediately restarted it. I watched it with her, then my sister showed up home with her boyfriend. They wanted to watch it.   But my sister doesn’t like it. So we I watched it a third time, then my brother and his girlfriend showed up. They wanted to watch it, so we watched it again. And I’m pretty sure then later, my dad came home from work, and we watched it again. 

Craig:  That’s hilarious. I I don’t know if 

Jordan:  I could watch it 5 

Todd:  times no way. Yeah. 

Jordan:  I think I did have a nightmare that night just from, like, sheer overload. I’ll lose that movie. 

Craig:  Maybe your nightmare was that you had to watch it again. 

Jordan:  Probably. Alright. Well, thank you for joining us for another episode of, 2 Guys in a Chainsaw. Thank you 

Craig:  very much, Jordan, for, being our guest. You are an excellent guest. I can only imagine that we will have you back sometime in the future. 

Jordan:  I hope so. Thank you for 

Craig:  having me as much. No problem. If you enjoyed this episode, we have lots and lots of back episodes on iTunes and Stitcher. I think we’re on Google Play Play too. You can find us on Facebook. And if you do find us on Facebook, we would love to hear from you. We love hearing your feedback. We’d love when you join the discussion.   And if there are any movies that you would like for us to watch and talk about, we would love to hear about it. So until next time, I’m Craig. 

Todd:  And I’m Todd. 

Jordan:  And I’m Jordan.