May (2002)

Episode 183, 2 Guys and a Chainsaw Horror Movie Review Podcast

Craig:  Hello, and welcome to another episode of Two Guys and a Chainsaw.  I’m Craig.

Todd:  And I’m Todd.

Craig:  This week, I told Todd that I thought we should do something a little bit more contemporary, and I shot him a few ideas. As it turned out, most of the ideas that I threw out there were kind of dark. And the one that we ended up going with this week is 2000 two’s May, directed and written by Lucky McKee. I don’t know a whole lot about Lucky McKee, except for that, when I was researching this movie, I noticed that, oh, that’s my dog. Sorry.

Todd:  Your dog has a lot to say about this movie, apparently. Or Lucky McKee. Maybe he knows Lucky. Sounds kinda like a dog’s name, doesn’t it? Lucky McKee? Yeah.

Craig:  She must know, that, we’re gonna be talking about some dark stuff. She’s getting a little irritated. When I was throwing out some movies, I I threw out some names and, it turned out that a couple of the movies that I threw out there really unbeknownst to me were by Lucky McKee. Another one that I threw out there that he had done was The Woman, which is another movie that I would like to talk about soon. Again, another dark one. But this one, May, came out, I believe in 2002, and I’ve read a couple different things. If you look at IMDB, it shows that McKee had directed one film before this. I think it was called All Cheerleaders Die or something like that.

Todd:  Yeah. Yeah.

Craig:  But then I looked at Wikipedia and it said this was his first movie. So I I’m a little bit confused. I know that he ended up remaking All Cheerleaders Die in like 2013, and I don’t think that I’ve seen that film, but, the stuff of his that I have seen, I don’t know if saying that I like it is the right way to go, but it’s, some intriguing stuff. And I just remembered the reason that I threw Mei out there is because I had seen it a long time ago, and I remembered the general plot, but I didn’t remember a lot of specifics about it other than that it was pretty dark. But I kind of wanted to revisit it, and now I have.

Todd:  And that’s  our podcast, folks. Thank you for listening.

Craig:  The end.

Todd:  No. We’ve revisited it.

Craig:  I I’m really interested to hear what you  thought  of it because it’s it’s a really interesting movie. Had you heard of it, seen May at all?

Todd:  Absolutely not. No, I hadn’t heard of this at all. So I was really, intrigued when you threw it up there for us. Now Lucky Mckee, McKee, I I don’t know that much about him either. But I just do remember that we had done a couple things with him. And I think, he did a segment with of Tales of Halloween, which we really Yeah. Yeah. Really liked that show.  And then the name, maybe the woman. I think I had I had read about the woman. That’s been on our list you know for a little while and we probably will do it soon. But no, I hadn’t even heard of this movie and I was really happy. When I was watching it actually got a bit of audition vibe. I don’t think you’ve seen that movie yet, Chris.

Craig:  I haven’t.

Todd:  But that’s a Japanese film and it it’s not the same thing, but it’s got a little bit of the same vibe to it. It’s dark and it’s we’ve seen darker, but, it’s more of a character study, I think, than anything else. And it’s got, you know, a slasher element to it, but not I don’t know. When I say slasher movie, I think of, like, something that’s very, energetic and, you know, there are people running around and being chased and and slashed. Right. Kind of our typical eighties slasher movie kind of thing. This isn’t that kind of movie, I think, but, you know, people do get slashed and killed. So it’s billed as a slasher film more in the style maybe of Maniac.  Yeah. Than Nightmare on Elm Street or Friday 13th or something like that.

Craig:  Yeah. It does feel like more of like a a kind of a psychological profile really more than anything else. I think, you know, I was I was talking to my partner last night and I said, I don’t think this movie would have worked without Angela Bettis. Angela Bettis is the lead actress in this film

Todd:  Yeah.

Craig:  And she’s worked with Lucky McKee several times. She’s in the woman and but and she’s done lots of other things too, you know. She’s she was in Girl Interrupted. I had completely forgotten she was in that, but as soon as I read that I remembered who her character was. She played an anorexic patient in Girl, Interrupted and and was really good in that. She was also in one of the remakes of Carrie. She played Carrie, and I think that was a really fitting role for her. There’s just something about her.  I mean, she’s got kind of a sissy SpaceX kind  of  quality about her.

Todd:  She can kind of play pathetic. Right?

Craig:  Yeah.

Todd:  Pathetic and sad, which is is really how I feel about this poor girl in this movie. Abused and beaten down, you know, kind of stunted. Like Carrie in a way. Yeah.

Craig:  Exactly. And oddly enough, you know, I think that Angela Bettis is actually a very beautiful woman.

Todd:  Mhmm.

Craig:  But she plays the vulnerability so well that you believe that she could be kind of this outcast character.

Todd:  Mhmm.

Craig:  I I really think that she carries this movie and and makes it I don’t know. I she’s she’s sympathetic at the same time that she’s odd and perhaps even frightening in in some ways, but I’m so impressed with her. The premise of the movie is that, this young girl, May, is born with a lazy eye and her mother appears to be somebody who is concerned with appearances.

Todd:  It’s a little bit of of a montage in a way of her growing up. Apparently, there was supposed to be a much more of this Yes. To establish her character, but he ended up cutting a lot of it out because it just slowed the story down too much. He he got to the point, pretty quickly and then moved on now with the adult version of her. But there’s a scene, that I thought was really interesting. Well, of course every scene with the mother just has this little zinger that her mom says where you just kind of wince like

Clip:  oh. Right.

Todd:  She’s a terrible mom and, one of them is you know she she has she has to wear an eye patch over one of her eyes. I think it’s to try to train the lazy eye.

Clip:  Uh-huh. Do  you wanna make friends? And keep it covered.

Todd:  She moves it aside and instantly a kid comes up to her and says, oh, are you a pirate? And they all start laughing at her and walk away. So she learns to pull her hair back over it again, you know. So it’s like her mom is vindicated in this horrible way. You know, even though she’s giving her this terrible advice. And then she she gives her a doll, in the movie. Her mom apparently makes things, makes dolls, crafts. It’s not really clear, but she ends up carrying this through herself as an adult. And her mom gives her this doll and she says

Clip:  I’ve always said, if you can’t find a friend, make one. Happy birthday, sweetheart. Her name is Susie. Susie was the first doll I ever made. She was my best friend, and now she’ll be yours.

Todd:  And it’s kind of a creepy looking porcelain y doll with these big glass blue eyes But she gives it to her in a glass case and the girl instantly tries to open this glass case to take the doll out of it and her mom’s like no no no no, this is precious. This is a very very special doll and so this poor girl even her doll is encased in this. She can’t touch it. Right? She can’t feel it or hold it or anything. It’s it’s sad. You know? She’s got this she has to make this friend and it’s probably not her fault. But it’s because her mom’s kind of overbearing and in a sense she’s just like unable to make an emotional connection with anything, even a doll, you know. Right.  She’s prevented from having any kind of contact with it. And so, it’s really the doll really I think kinda becomes a symbol really for her in the movie. Just boxed off, you know, boxed off from the world kind of in her own little glass cage. Right. And able to reach out of it. Right? Except just stare. Just stare out like the doll does. And and that’s kinda what her character does is stares around a lot.

Craig:  Right. Right. And and like you said, they did, initially try to establish more with her as a kid, but it just Craig out too long. I guess they decided. And and I think I agree. I think that it was wise to just get to her, as a young adult. How old do you think she’s supposed to be? Like 20?

Todd:  Yeah. Maybe

Craig:  20. Like out of high school, but

Todd:  Not too far out of high school. Maybe maybe like 2021 or 22. Yeah. Somewhere somewhere in there.

Craig:  She, works in an animal hospital. Before we move on, the very, very, very first thing that we see is her standing in front of a mirror covering one of her eyes, and you see blood, and and she’s weeping. And then it cuts immediately away from that into, you know, her youth story. Of course, obviously, you know from the beginning we’re gonna be building up to that point. We don’t know what’s going on. But she talks immediately about how she looks at the world and she looks at other people and she says, you know, you see people and you see parts of them that you really really like, but then once you get to know them you start to see parts that you don’t like. Yeah. And and that really becomes, you know, a major issue for her.  Pretty much right from the beginning, sees this guy. And when I say sees this guy, I mean, that’s literally it. I mean, she just sees him from a distance. And his name is Adam and he’s a mechanic, I think. And he’s played by Jeremy who has done a lot of things. He, was in wrong turn. He was in clueless, very recognizable guy. In fact, I may be making this up, but I don’t think so.  I think that he was cast in the Leonardo DiCaprio role in Titanic before he was original eventually turned down and and Leo got it. I think I remember reading that.

Clip:  Wow.

Craig:  Don’t quote me on it. But, anyway, she sees him, and she just, like, is immediately infatuated with his hands. She just loves his hands. A lot of what we get from her in the beginning is just kind of her inner monologue where she really just wants a friend. You know, she, I think she says to her doll or says to herself, I need a real friend. She wears these glasses that correct her lazy eye, and we see very early on that she also gets corrective contacts that, correct her eye. It’s just such a difficult dynamic to describe because she’s supposed to be awkward and strange, and she is, but at the same time, from a purely physical perspective, she’s not an unattractive person. No.  She’s a nice looking young woman and when her eye is corrected, she looks she looks totally normal. Now, she doesn’t act totally normal. She’s a little bit off, but she looks normal, and so you could understand how people would find her interesting, attractive, appealing, but we have more insight kind of into her inner monologue which I don’t know. Gosh, it’s so hard to describe. It’s just such a strange dynamic. And and and that to me is kinda what makes the movie fascinating.

Todd:  Yeah. She’s a pretty person, but like you said, she’s a little awkward and and shy, and like I you know, she stares at the world. And so it also makes her easy to be a victim as well. Easy for people to prey on her. And I think there’s also just this feeling of dread that I get in the beginning of the movie. It’s like Carrie, you know. It’s like, oh my gosh, I’m gonna watch this poor girl have people take advantage of her. And I think that also permeates the movie and gives you a lot more sympathy for her as well.  And provides a good counter balance for some of the weird kind of twisted things that she kind of And the movie’s really good, I think, about peeling back these layers of her onion slowly and not really hitting you with it all at once. We we get insight into her inner monologue simply from her talking to her doll at first. She’s talking to her doll like it’s a person, like it really is her only friend and, she’s talking to it through the glass and everything. And you can see that she’s picked up on her mom’s craftiness or whatever and she also makes things, makes dolls and whatnot. She has an interesting friend at work. Let’s just put it that way.

Craig:  It’s so funny because we picked this and then I, you know, went to IMDB as I usually do to see who was in it and who directed it. And I saw that Anna Faris was in this movie. Yeah. And I had completely forgotten. I had no idea. This has to have been one of the first things that she ever did.

Todd:  Well, she’s done, like, 3 or 4. She did scary movie and scary movie 2 before she did this. But,

Clip:  Oh, wow.

Todd:  Yeah.

Craig:  But I I I had just completely forgotten that she was in it. I love her. I think that she’s hilarious. You know, obviously, she’s not playing it for the comedy here, but she is the, like, receptionist at the animal hospital that, May works at. And it’s funny because this animal hospital that she works at, it seems like the veterinarian here is, like, totally inept. And really, it seems like May is the one that kind of keeps everything together and knows what she’s doing in this hospital. But Polly is the name of the character that Anna Faris plays, and right seemingly from the beginning for me, I got the very distinct feeling which ends up being true that Polly is flirting with her

Clip:  Yeah.

Craig:  And kind of coming on to her. And initially, it seems like Mae just is a little bit oblivious and and kinda just doesn’t get it. But again, it just kind of goes to show how kind of socially inept she is. Yeah. She she doesn’t know how to respond to people.

Todd:  Well, that opens her up to so many influences, you know, because everything is kind of new and and odd and strange to her. So then she’s gonna kinda kinda not know what to do with it. So sometimes, she just ends up going along with it and you’re not sure if she’s being again, I don’t you’re not sure if she’s being victimized or if she’s okay with this. It’s really hard to read her.

Craig:  It is. And Pauley, Anna Faris says these goofy lines. Like, she’s awkwardly flirting with May and she says things like

Clip:  You should call me one of these nights. You know, we’ll hang out and eat some melons or something. Right. And and at one

Todd:  time, she’s like, do you like pussy? And she’s like, what? What? She’s like, pussy cats.

Clip:  Cats. Pussy cats. There’s

Todd:  a fair amount of comedy in this movie to be fair. A dark comedy for sure. But, yeah, there’s a

Clip:  fair amount.

Craig:  Oh, absolutely. Absolutely.

Todd:  Todd be, honestly, or else it would be really really down.

Craig:  Well and and there’s weird stuff going on. Like, at at one point, Polly kind of catches May cutting herself Mhmm. With a scalpel. Then Polly’s like, well, here. Try it with me. And and so she cuts her, and at first, Polly’s like, ow,

Clip:  Ow, what do you

Craig:  freak that hurt? And then she’s like, but but I actually kinda liked it. Yeah. I’m doing my best Anna Faris breathy voice.

Todd:  That’s really great. She she looks so much like Britney Spears. She looks like she could be Britney Spears’ sister, you know?

Clip:  She does.

Craig:  She does a little bit.

Clip:  That’s all

Todd:  I did when I could think when I was watching this.

Craig:  Yeah. She’s she’s got dark hair in this movie. She’s kind of a signature blonde. You know, I I watch the stuff that she’s in. I like her. You know, she was in the House Bunny, which I thought was a hilarious movie. She’s got a hit TV show right now, and, I really like her. So I was kind of intrigued by her performance in this movie, which is different than the other stuff that she’s done.  Meanwhile, she’s also not Polly, but May is, like, awkwardly stalking Adam. Yeah. Like, she’s following him around. She’s trying to find ways to bump into him. At some point, she is kind of stalking him in, like, a coffee shop or, like, a little bistro or something. He’s reading a magazine or something, but he falls asleep. He has his head resting on his hand and he falls asleep so that his head falls down, but his hand is still up in the air, which there’s a lot of imagery and stuff going on in this movie that’s big time foreshadowing and stuff.

Todd:  Yeah.

Craig:  You know, we already know that she’s obsessed with his hand. And now here he is with his head down and just his hand up in the air, and she goes over and she kind of lightly caresses it and then puts her face in it. So, like, his hand is caressing her face and he wakes up and he’s like, hey, what’s up? And she runs away awkwardly and, but they kind of start a little relationship. Yeah. They meet in the laundromat. They have lunch in the park, and he seems really nice. At first, it almost seems like he’s a little bit intrigued by the dark nature of her, because she says that she works in the animal hospital, and she’s like, well, you must think that’s gross. And he’s like, no.  I love gross. Disgust me.

Clip:  Mhmm.

Craig:  And she tells this horrible story about this dog that they worked on, and they stitched up with the wrong sutures and, like, all its innards fell out, and she had to, like, fix it or whatever. And it’s he kind of is looking at her like, what is wrong with you? But he’s he’s still kinda into it.

Todd:  But then, you know, he takes her to his room, and he is I guess he’s kind of does art or something on the side. Uh-huh. So he’s a little bit of a creator person as well as she is. And kind of like her, his art is a little on the dark side. It’s like 90s goth type stuff. You know, where he’s got cutouts of things and nails glued to stuff. And and and, you know, he shows this to his this room to her, and he asks her, does this scare you? Do you think this is weird? And she’s like, no, I think it’s cool. And then they start to make out, and when they’re kissing, she just up and up what? Bites his tongue or bites his lip or something?

Craig:  Well, yeah. I mean, that’s I I feel like that’s kind of the second date, you know. Yeah. Other things other things go on too. And the first time he tries to kiss her or something, I don’t know, she gets mad at the doll. Like, you kind of see her coming unhinged a little bit. And and what you said before, I think, is absolutely right. I think that the doll is kind of a manifestation of her inner self or something.  And and it it’s almost like it speaks to her even though it doesn’t physically.

Clip:  Right.

Todd:  It’s not

Clip:  a supernatural thing, but it it seems like in her mind, this

Todd:  doll is thing, but it it seems like in her mind, this doll’s speaking to her. Yeah.

Craig:  Right. And gives her advice and things. And so then when things go poorly, she gets angry at the doll. But you’re right. Eventually, they do have the date. And the the thing is, when they have this date, he tells her that, he’s just finished working on a movie. He says that when he was in college that he had been interested in filmmaking, but he dropped out of college, and he’s just now put the finishing touches on his movie. And and yeah.  And she says, well, can I see it? And so they have an a nice dinner, and she I think she makes a macaroni and cheese and and serves them Gatorade in a wine glass. Oh. And, and then they sit down to watch this movie and his movie is called Jack and Jill. It’s weird.

Todd:  Artsy student project, basically.

Craig:  Right. And and not great by any stretch of the imagination, you know, very much a short student film. But really kind of what it’s about is, like, erotic cannibalism.

Clip:  Yeah.

Craig:  These these two people, like, it seems very sweet and they’re, you know, having a picnic in the park, and then they start eating one another,

Clip:  erotically. Erotically eating each other.

Todd:  He, like, bites her tongue out and, like, then she like, he’s going down on her chest, and he’s, like, chewing off her yeah. Yeah. It’s it’s it it just gets ridiculously bloody, and she’s sitting there watching it, and she’s she kinda likes it.

Craig:  Yeah. Oh, and and and, like, she’s smiling and she’s trying to snuggle up with them. And when it’s over and it’s only a few minutes long, he says, what did you think? And she said, it was sweet. Uh-huh. She says, except for I don’t think she could have bitten off his finger in one bite. That part was kind of Farfetch.

Clip:  I thought that line was so funny.

Craig:  It’s just like not not Farfetch’d that they would be, you know, eating one another, but that he he could bite off her fingers. She could bite off his finger in one bite. That that was a little Farfetch’d.

Todd:  Well, and you know as I was watching this movie, I was trying to figure out just in the back of my mind. I was wondering is this the way she is? Is this kind of her coming out of her shell or is she just so easily influenced by others and so inexperienced in the world that she takes totally deadly seriously and fully embraces every little weird thing that comes her way? Maybe she wasn’t into blood until and and guts and stuff until she started working at an animal hospital and

Clip:  she

Todd:  was exposed to it a lot and that kind of intrigued her. And then maybe she never really thought of this in an erotic way until she makes this connection because she sees this movie with this guy. And so, she likes the guy and so she thinks she needs to like this too and then that becomes kind of a part of her, you know. And then later, this receptionist is coming on to her even more and more strongly and overtly and they end up having a sexual experience and Again, I get this feeling like throughout this scene, which by the way is a super hot scene. The movie’s shot really well, and I think that the sex scenes in this movie, what, there’s 1 maybe 2, are really well done.

Craig:  Yeah, and and not gratuitous.

Todd:  Not gratuitous. Yeah. Just, like, really sorry. Just really steamy hot, hot, sexy.

Craig:  No. I get it. I get it. Enjoyable. It’s it’s more about sensuality than Yeah. It’s not porny. No. It’s not.  And

Todd:  and it gets you into her head, like, this is, you know, what she’s feeling now. This is excitement, this new thing. It’s really erotic and it’s really sexy. And the whole time I’m thinking, you know, maybe she really never thought about girls in that way, and but her friend is coming on to her and so now this is kind of becoming a part of her as well. It’s not that she’s really experiencing an awakening so much as she’s absorbing all these little twisted pieces. You know what I mean by twist, but just all these little different pieces of things that people are throwing at her and it’s becoming almost too much for her to Todd handle. She’s not equipped to deal with it.

Craig:  Yeah. Oh, and I think that you’re absolutely right. And I think that that’s part of what makes the movie so interesting is that she’s so susceptible to influence. She wants so desperately to be liked and and to be loved that she is just kind of willing to go wherever she thinks people want her to go. Yeah. And and that’s and that’s the thing, like, you know, what you mentioned before after they watched the movie, that’s when she and Adam start making out.

Todd:  She bites his tongue.

Clip:  She she

Craig:  well, she well, she bites his lip hard Mhmm. And and draws blood. And then she takes the blood and, like, wipes it on her face and and he freaks out as I suppose most people probably would.

Clip:  Mhmm.

Craig:  And she’s, like, what it it’s just like your movie. And it does leave you wondering, you know, is that something that was something that was repressed within herself that she’s allowing to come out? Or is it just because she saw what she thought that he thought was erotic and and sexy and so she wanted to do that. Yeah. I don’t know. I mean, it’s it’s a a a fine line and I I just think it I don’t it’s just so interesting. And and Angela Bettis just does such a good job of I just I believe this person, you know. I believe her as a character. She’s so odd and she’s so out there, but at the same time, she’s really sympathetic because she’s so alone and she just so desperately desperately wants a connection with somebody.  And then after that, you know, he he gets out of there. Yeah. Like, they were about to get down like, that it was gonna happen, but then she freaks him out and he runs off. And then she, I think, the next day or or soon thereafter goes to his house, but before she can knock on the door, he opens the door because his roommate says, don’t blow smoke in here or something. So he’s standing on the other side of the door with just his, again, his hand sticking out of the door holding his cigarette and he’s blowing his smoke out. And he doesn’t know that she’s there, and she overhears them talking about her.

Clip:  She’s pretty. You know, I don’t think she’s playing with a full back. That’s not what you wanted to be playing with. True. At least she knows she’s not out of her mind. Okay. You know what? We’re not talking about Mae anymore. I’ve successfully escaped that limiter.  Who’s Mae? Some weird chick Adam just dumped.

Craig:  It’s such an interesting scene because they are literally standing maybe 2 feet from each other, but he doesn’t know she’s there. And and you see her emotion when she gets so happy to hear him speaking well of her and then when he calls her crazy, her look just totally changes and you can just she’s she’s devastated.

Todd:  Yeah. It’s heartbreaking.

Craig:  It is. It is heartbreaking.

Todd:  And that’s kind of when she more or less ends up falling into the arms of the girl at work, Polly. Polly. Who’s been coming on to her in a totally different way. She he’s she’s very overt. She’s really and you feel bad for her Todd because you could see that Polly’s really probably just playing with her. I mean, totally hot and you get the sense that she sees her as a plaything.

Craig:  A challenge, maybe. Mhmm.

Todd:  Yeah. Fun little challenge experience, and so, you know, they kind of, have a have a moment where, you know, it’s very well, they they have sex, basically.

Craig:  But there’s also an interesting moment when they’re making out.

Clip:  Mhmm.

Craig:  May it kinda seems like she’s into it, and then she sees that Pauley has, like, this big hairy mole on her finger.

Todd:  And she’s totally intrigued by it.

Craig:  She’s intrigued by it and maybe a little bit grossed out, I think, by it too. And it goes back to that, you know, from the very beginning. She said, you see people and they have there are so many good things about them, and then you see the not good parts. And and in in this case, it’s it’s purely physical, but it seems to bother her.

Todd:  Yeah. And she also was, like, really taken by her neck. Yeah. Polly will turn her head to the side to, you know, to say something over her shoulder, and she’s just staring at her neck as it’s stretched out in her direction.

Craig:  I think one of the very first things we hear her say to Polly you know, Polly’s talking to her, and she just says to her, you have a beautiful neck, and Polly’s like, well,

Clip:  thank

Craig:  you. It’s all building to something obviously, you know, she notices specific things about people. She’s infatuated with Adam’s hands. She loves Polly’s neck.

Todd:  And later, she goes to Polly’s house and Polly answers the door in a towel and, she hears another woman in there and she can just see over Polly’s shoulder nothing but two legs. Mhmm. Just kind of kicking around and, Polly’s like, oh, I just had to hit this. You know, you know you’re the one I’m really interested in, but who can turn down those legs? At some point, she just has to cover up. Like, she adjusts Polly’s arm in the doorway because Polly has a gown on and she adjusts the gown so she doesn’t have to see the other girl’s legs because it’s almost too much for her to handle. And of course, she cries and she sort of runs away. So you feel sorry for her again. Again, she sort of turned down, but now here’s Polly’s friend’s legs.  She just fetishizes all of these physical things as well.

Craig:  Right. And meanwhile, she’s still kind of stalking Adam but Adam is clearly over her. Now, one of the parts that I was really interested in because I thought it was an interesting part of the movie, but I’m not really sure what to make of it. At one point, she and Adam are in the park. There’s a group of kids playing nearby and May says to Adam, why are they all touching everything? And and he says, because they’re blind. And after Adam kind of ditches her and is, avoiding her, she’s in the park and she sees them again, and then she goes to volunteer at the daycare or whatever it is. And there’s a horrible scene with the, receptionist at the daycare who is totally awful about, you know, these kids with special needs, but she ends up volunteering with these blind kids and she makes a special connection with one of the girls who kind of like her is an outcast and keeps to herself. Now, I felt like there was something going on here symbolically, but Yeah.  I felt like maybe it was kind of going over my head. Am I reading too much into it? No. Is it just that she felt a kinship to them because they were different?

Todd:  Maybe, of course, maybe connected to their eyes Todd. An eye has always been a problem of hers and seeing things. But I felt like this was the most contrived scene of the movie. Obviously, the scene is meant to have some serious emotional impact. It’s just one more jarring thing that happens to this poor woman. But, yeah, she is, playing with these kids and she’s attracted to that one girl, like you said. And then she decides she’s gonna bring her doll in and introduce the kids to the doll. But, of course, her doll is inside this glass case.  So what are these kids who can’t see do? They reach out and they feel. They touch things. And I I kind of wonder, if you’re gonna look maybe for some hidden subtext here, is even these blind kids who cannot see can touch and feel things to to make out their world, You know? And this is the thing that she can’t do. Right? It’s it’s like Mhmm. Again, symbolically, she’s been this this doll is boxed in. She can’t even touch her own doll. But these girls, that’s all they know. And so they end up shattering the case around this doll because they’re trying to take it from her because they wanna feel it and she’s like, no.  No. No. You can’t open it. You can’t do that. It’s gonna ruin her or whatever.

Craig:  Right. She’s special. She can’t

Todd:  come out. And they’re trying to do it. You know, they’re trying to get it out of her. And finally, it Todd and it falls and it does shatter. But then the glass goes all over the floor. And as the kids are crawling around on the glass, they start getting cut and bleeding. And she’s got blood on her face. And it’s it’s a little over the top, to be honest.  And it’s maybe trying a little too hard for the symbolism, I think. In a movie that otherwise was pretty believable, this is a really contrived scene, I think. But you’re right. I think there’s below the surface, there’s something here talking about just how stunted she is, and how unable she is to to even break out of that box.

Craig:  Well, I mean, it’s even just sad that when she you know, it’s kinda like show and tell except it’s mostly tell because they can’t see. But, you know, she she says this is my best friend. Mhmm. And just that in itself is sad. And throughout all of this, she appears to be being tormented by this doll. Yeah. Almost as though I don’t know if the doll is supposed to be her, you know, behind this glass cape.

Todd:  Maybe a piece of her mom.

Craig:  Right. Exactly. Like, you know, her because her mother made it and her mother gave it to her, you know, like, she feels judgment from it. She gets she gets angry at the doll several times.

Todd:  It has these perfect big blue eyes that stare straight ahead, which her eyes can’t do.

Craig:  Yeah. It’s pretty creepy. But yeah. Okay. So the the kids, you know, get all bloodied. And I think that the implication is that somehow she gets tiny shards of glass in her eyes. Because when she gets home, she starts rubbing her eyes, which, of course, is the worst thing you can do if you have

Todd:  Glass in them.

Craig:  Something abrasive in your eyes. Right? She tears at them with her fingers and when she wakes up the next day, she looks in the mirror and her eyes are just a bloody mess. But then, the very next scene, I felt like time must have gone by that we missed because in the very next scene, she looks fine. She’s sitting on a bus stop and this weird guy sits down next to her. He’s got this crazy, like, moose, like, weird mohawk, and he’s a recognizable guy too. He’s play he’s he’s credited as blank in the credits. I don’t think he has a name. But his name is James Duvall, and and he was in Independence Day, and he was in Donnie Darko, recognizable guy.  And and at first, he seems like he’s being really nice to her.

Todd:  Yeah.

Craig:  She’s kind of blase about it at first, but then he kind of says, you know, do you wanna hang out? Do you wanna go get some jujubes with me? And, eventually, she concedes and they go and then they end up back at her house. And and, you know, it’s been well over a decade since I’d seen this movie, so I didn’t remember what was gonna happen. But at first, it seemed like he was being very nice. But then when they got back to her apartment, he started acting weird.

Clip:  Really weird. Like Like He’s like,

Craig:  it’s really hot in here. Do you mind if I take off my shirt? She’s like, okay. But I did think that it was really clever that when he took off his shirt, she’s like, oh, I really like your tattoo and it was Frankenstein’s monster.

Todd:  Yeah. Very very clever. Very clever. A little on the nose, but yeah. Yes.

Craig:  Then he’s like, oh, man. I’m still really hot. Do you have any ice cubes I can rub on my nipples? Oh, yeah. The nipple ice cubes are on the second shelf just

Todd:  What even is that? Is that a thing? But then he goes to the freezer and he opens it up and the cat is in there. Oh, we didn’t mention she killed she killed her cat. And in anger, she threw

Craig:  Polly’s cat. She’d been watching Polly’s cat.

Todd:  Polly’s cat. That’s right.

Craig:  Right. In anger, she had thrown the ash tray that I mean, there’s so many little things that yeah. The little blind girl made her an ash tray with her name in it in a fit of rage because the cat wouldn’t come let her pet it or something. She threw it and and killed the cat and the cat’s in the freezer. Then she tries to stop him, but he opens it anyway. And then when he sees it, she’s like, are we best friends now? Now that you’ve seen what’s in my freezer, are we best friends? And it’s so like, it sounds so ludicrous.

Todd:  It is kinda ludicrous.

Craig:  But the way the way that it’s delivered, it’s sad. Yeah. Like, this poor girl is just desperate for some connection.

Todd:  Yeah.

Craig:  And she’s messed up and I I think that on one level, she knows she’s messed up, but on another level, she just wants somebody to accept her for what she is and for who she is and she just keeps getting kind of rejected at every turn and

Todd:  Well, and then he just outright rejects her. Says, no, we can’t be friends. You’re a freak. Yeah. And this is the what breaks her, I guess. Right?

Craig:  Yeah.

Todd:  She sees some scissors and the the scissors are symbolic. Right? It’s what her mother used to cut fabric.

Craig:  Sewing scissors. Right?

Todd:  She uses to cut fabric to make the dolls and the things and stuff. And so we get these little flashbacks through her history. This is an interesting way, I think, of showing her mind snapping. I think it’s just like all this stuff ties together. All this stuff is stacked up. And now, you know, this is the last straw. She grabs those scissors and just stabs the guy straight in the forehead.

Craig:  Through his hand. I thought that was really cool, like, because he puts his hands up, like, to protect himself, and she stabs through his hand into his skull, which, like, you know

Todd:  Could that really happen? I guess. I don’t know.

Craig:  I I don’t know. I mean, sewing scissors are sharp. I don’t know if you could go through somebody’s skull, but, like, his hand is, like, pierced, to his head. Mhmm. And and then he’s dead and she’s kind of covered in blood and you do see all those very creepy flashbacks, which in the moment were mildly uncomfortable, but in the flashbacks, you know, just piecing them all together, it just, wow, you know, this is crazy.

Clip:  Mhmm.

Craig:  And she then it just cuts back to her standing there kind of blank faced and she just says, I need more parts. And and that was the first thing that she said to him when he had approached her at the bus stop. He’s, like, hey, what’s up? And she was just, like, people watching, and she said so many beautiful parts, but no pretty holes. W h o l e s. Not Yeah. At first, I heard

Todd:  it the other way. She had just come out of her lesbian experience, and she was staring at a girl as she walked by.

Craig:  No. But, like, I mean, that’s the thing. Like, she like you said, she fetishizes these specific parts of people and but nobody’s perfect. She’s looking for something perfect, but she can’t find it.

Todd:  Yeah. And it’s an interesting I mean, it’s a manifestation of a of a lesson we should all learn. Right? I mean, nothing is perfect. Nobody is perfect. You can’t get that. And if you’re obsessed with finding perfection in people, you’re always gonna be turned away because there are flaws there. Uh-huh. In a sense, I feel like that’s sort of the way what the movie’s about.  Maybe I’m jumping the gun here because that’s more or less the last scene kind of comes to. Right?

Craig:  Well, it is. I mean, there’s another scene where she talks to Adam in the park, which I read was, you know, heavily cut. I think that initially that guy, blank, whoever he is, was actually in the scene with him, and they just edited it around him. So it was just the 2 of them, Adam and May. She plays it kind of cool with him, but she’s still kinda creepy. Like, she shakes his hand and she holds on to it and kisses it. And then when he leaves, she’s like, later, hands, which I loved. And then the next thing you see is she’s measuring Polly, measuring her neck, with the tape measure.  And Polly’s like, why are we doing this? It’s like, oh, I’m gonna make you a blouse. Because she does. May makes all her own clothes and she has a really interesting fashion sense. And then Polly’s new girlfriend Ambrosia shows up and May comments on her legs. But she also says as she’s measuring Polly’s neck, she notices that gross mole on her finger again.

Clip:  You ever thought of having this removed? My grandma said it’s imperfections that make you special. What do you think?

Craig:  And And May just kinda shrugs her shoulders like, I don’t know.

Todd:  Yeah. Don’t buy it.

Clip:  Yeah. I

Todd:  don’t buy it. I know. Well, it’s an interesting thing coming from this girl. Right? This girl who clearly she’s pretty perfect except for that mole.

Clip:  Right.

Todd:  Whereas, here’s May, and her whole life she’s been living with this imperfection that’s more or less defined her and kept her from getting close to anybody. And so, it’s almost the same sense of people when they talk about the nobility of the poor. It like, okay. Well, you’ve never been poor. It’s real easy for you to talk about how noble it is. Poor people generally don’t wanna be poor.

Craig:  Sure.

Todd:  They they don’t feel noble at all. So it’s it’s very patronizing. And so in a sense, it it feels a little I mean, it’s a nice sentiment and it’s Yeah. Probably true, but coming from this girl to this girl, it sounds kind of patronizing. Mhmm. You know? And she doesn’t even know it, but it definitely would be received that way, I think.

Craig:  Yeah. Oh, yeah. I I totally agree. I hadn’t really thought of it that way. You know, and and because when they kinda just shrugs it off, you almost see poly kind of questioning yourself, like, oh, maybe I

Clip:  should get it taken off. Maybe this

Todd:  is gross.

Craig:  Yeah. But, this this all leads up to the final act. And now I have to admit, we’ve taken requests. I’m thinking specifically of Bone Tomahawk where I’ve said we got tricked because this doesn’t feel like a horror movie for most of the movie. And I would say up to this point

Todd:  It’s not.

Craig:  It’s kind of a psychological thriller, I guess, but it’s more like you said right from the beginning like a character study. It doesn’t feel like horror at all.

Todd:  Well, if Carrie is horror, then this is horror. The only difference is that you and Carrie, you know, there’s a supernatural element. Right. She has these psychic powers and can make things happen. So that’s kind of the horrible dread that, you know, you know something bad is gonna happen. It’s just gonna escalate. I feel like with her, you do get the sense starting off early in the movie that you’re gonna watch this woman slowly break down.

Craig:  Yes.

Todd:  And it’s and it’s escalating. So I did feel I would legitimately call it horror, but like you said definitely more psychological thriller than outright, you know scary horror. It’s not scary yet. Right?

Craig:  Right. And that’s that’s what I was going to say Todd. Like, from the very beginning, there’s a sense of dread because you, at least, I had the very distinct feeling that something bad was going to happen.

Todd:  Well, something’s gonna happen to her eye? Well, yeah.

Clip:  Because it’s yeah. It’s a pretty

Todd:  distinct sense.

Craig:  Telegraph right from the beginning. Oh, man. But now in this very final act, which really is probably I don’t know, maybe the last 15, 20 minutes of the movie, is when things get very dark. It’s Halloween and May makes herself a costume. Really, She dresses as Susie, the doll. She calls Polly. And I also have to say that from this point, there was such a distinct shift in character for May and I thought that Angela Bettis played it so well because it’s it’s really abrupt and it’s a a distinct difference, but it it didn’t seem jarring

Todd:  Mhmm. To

Craig:  me. It it seemed like just now she is embracing something. And all of a sudden, she’s more confident.

Todd:  Yeah. More calculating. Right? But also just she maintains that earlier part of herself where you just feel like some of her just not there. Mhmm. It’s not this calculating, like, I’m gonna do these mean things to people and get my revenge. It’s just this sort of, hey, I’ve done this once. It worked out. I have an idea, and I’m just gonna go through with it.  Mhmm. That she just had enough space in her head for this kind of thing. And I think that’s been built up. Of course, the movie, you buy it. I I bought it for sure.

Craig:  I did too. It’s not like she has some stunning physical transformation, but she does, you know, she puts on some dark lipstick and and she combs her hair down back behind her shoulders and and she just looks different. And she goes to Polly’s house and under the ruse of having made her a blouse or whatever, they’re sitting there together and May is sitting behind her as though she’s going to put this blouse on her, but instead she takes these two scalpels and puts them up to Polly’s neck and it’s almost like it’s an erotic game, like, Polly thinks it’s an erotic game. And she says, I know you would never hurt me, May. And then May slits her throat. And I just found that moment so Horrifying. Horrifying and satisfying because because you see, you know, Polly thinks it’s an erotic game, you know, Polly kinda got off on getting cut on her finger before.

Clip:  Mhmm.

Craig:  But then when they slices into her neck, you see this look of shock and horror on Pauley’s face, like, she she really didn’t see it coming.

Todd:  Yeah.

Craig:  You know, Anna Faris Anna Faris must have been a a baby when she made this movie but I I enjoyed her performance. You know, it’s not like she’s gonna win any awards for it or anything, but she was an interesting character.

Todd:  Yeah.

Craig:  And then, Polly’s girlfriend, Ambrosia, shows up and she’s drunk. And all I wrote down was May has an awkward conversation with Ambrosia. And and the reason that that’s that’s all I put there was because I thought that it was really interesting, and I thought that maybe you would put the clip in. So, you know, there you go.

Clip:  There you go.

Craig:  But, she in the end of it, she stabs Ambrosia in the head, and she’s lugging around this cooler. Like, the it’s so calculated. Like, she brought this cooler with her. She knew exactly what she was doing, and she’s just carrying it out. And at this point, she’s walking down the street and this girl walks up to her and goes, great costume. You got any cold ones in there? And Meg goes, yes, I do.

Clip:  Just keeps walking. It’s funny.

Craig:  I love it. And I read I wouldn’t have noticed this, but I read that the girl who talks to her is in the costume of the zombie cheerleaders from cheerleader all cheerleaders die, which was his previous film

Clip:  or whatever.

Craig:  But then she goes to Adam’s.

Todd:  Yep.

Craig:  Adam is at his house with his new female friend.

Todd:  He’s not real nice to her. It’s funny No.

Craig:  But but in this at the same time, like, Adam was really a nice guy. It just she freaked him out and rightfully so, she would have freaked me out too.

Todd:  I don’t know. Do you feel like he was really a nice guy or that you’re kinda getting the sense that, I mean, yeah, of course. He was intrigued. He was being nice to her, but was he also being nice to her in a sort of way that that Polly was being nice to her in this sort of bemused, intrigued way that ultimately didn’t take it very seriously and was kind of just poking her a little bit just to see what would happen because she’s so weird. I don’t know.

Craig:  Yeah. I mean, I I never got the like, I never thought, like, he was thinking in the back of his mind, oh, I’m gonna marry this girl someday. You know, like, it wasn’t like that. It was more like, oh, here’s this kinda weird girl, but she’s pretty and I can, you know, we can probably have a thing and and but I also he he he also didn’t give me the I’m only being nice to you to bang you, and I’m really just a jerk. You know? Right. It seemed like he was sincerely being nice to her, and then she freaked him out. But again, you know, there’s awkward conversation. I I feel like Adam’s new girlfriend is kind of amused that she can kind of flaunt her and Adam’s new relationship in front of May, who she clearly knows about, like, he’s obviously talked about her.  Yeah. You know, this last freaky girl that I went out with or whatever. And they’re drunk, and she ends up stabbing his girlfriend right in front of him which freaks him out. And then we don’t see anything after that. The next thing we see is her at home, and she opens up her cooler and opens up one of the packages in the cooler, and it’s Adam’s hands.

Todd:  Yep.

Craig:  And she says to the hands, you’re gonna look perfect. Now one of the things I can’t believe that I forgot to mention this earlier. For the first half at least of the movie and I may be wrong, Maybe it’s just because late nineties, early 2000 music, a lot of it all sounded alike, but it seemed like they were playing the same music over and over again.

Clip:  Oh, I don’t know.

Craig:  Did you notice that?

Todd:  No. I didn’t.

Craig:  It it it reminded me of, The Loved Ones. Was that the movie where the psycho girl

Todd:  Yeah.

Craig:  Kidnapped the guy? Yeah. And and she kept singing that same song over and over and over again.

Todd:  Right. Right.

Craig:  It reminded me of that. It it now when, she is killed these people, there’s new different music and we just get this montage of her sewing an outfit, but then also sewing together these parts that she’s made and blank, you know, the punk guy, he’s the arms. She uses Polly’s neck, she uses Ambrosia’s legs, and she uses Adam’s hands. I don’t know what she used for the torso, but Yeah. She she makes like a cloth doll head. I mean, she’s making a doll really.

Clip:  Yeah.

Craig:  What she’s doing is with with human parts. She had killed the cat with the ashtray that the blind girl had made her, but she had saved the letters that made up her name from the shards, and she lays them out once she’s got this doll all made up. She lays them out and she starts rearranging them. First, she lays out May, and then she starts rearranging them, and she ends up with Amy. So the doll’s name is Amy, which, of course, is an anagram of May, but I I read this. I would have never put it together. Ami, a m I, in French means friend.

Todd:  Oh, really?

Craig:  Yeah. Which I kinda knew, you know, mon ami, you know, I’ve heard that. It’s not like I’ve never heard it. But so she’s made this friend and she puts doll eyes on it

Todd:  From her doll.

Craig:  And she starts talking to it, but but then she gets up upset and she kind of emphatically says, see me. And then she kind of starts to break a little bit, and I just thought it was just absolutely heart wrenching. She says, all I want see me. She just she wants somebody to see her.

Clip:  Mhmm.

Craig:  But I I I guess she thinks that the dolls eyes aren’t sufficient. So she goes to the mirror and she agonizes over it, but she cuts out one of her own eyes with a scalpel and puts it on the doll. Now, I wanna hear what how how do how would you describe this these final moments?

Todd:  I think it’s kind of just, a magical realism. I I think it’s or just a poetic thing. I don’t think it actually happened. But she lays down next to this to this doll. She kinda goes quiet, and I think what’s happening here is she’s dying. I think she’s dead. But but it’s not clear at this point. It’s only afterwards I thought about, oh, yeah, she probably died.  Because what happens as she lays down next to this doll, which has got her eye on it, is that the arm lifts up and starts moving towards her, and that hand of Adam’s caresses her cheek, and then the screen goes out. So to me, this was more like her last escaping delusion, you know, sort of thing. I mean, you can interpret it that way. You can kind of interpret it as a magical realism kinda thing. You can kind of just interpret it as it’s a poetic thing that the movie is doing, but it’s not actually happening. It’s just sort of a vision putting a cap on all this. She put together all of these perfect parts from these imperfect people, and she thought then that would be the perfect friend for her in this weird twisted way. And, she can’t live any longer.  What’s what is it? I guess, the last pit bit is her own eye. I that she’s taken out her good eye? Was that was that her good eye?

Craig:  I wasn’t sure. I wasn’t sure.

Todd:  I think it must have been. It was her good eye was the left one. Yeah. It was the left one and so she took it out and put that in the doll and I guess that completed the doll. It was a perfect part what she considered the perfect parts of everybody that she’d interacted with, including herself. So there she’s one with the doll,

Clip:  I guess.

Craig:  I just it felt tragic to me. It left me feeling, you know, it’s not like I went into a depression or anything, but it it left me feeling very sad. And and the movie overall, I think, just ultimately ends up being very sad. This this poor sad girl

Clip:  Yeah.

Craig:  Who all she wanted was to connect with someone, anyone. And she she never could do that until, you know, she created this Frankenstein’s monster. Yeah. You know, really, ultimately, at the end.

Todd:  Well, her own flaws, right, were just thrown in her face. And, that’s ultimately because of her horrible mother making that such a part of who she was that it didn’t need to be. Then that’s all she saw in other people was their flaws. You know, she could see the one perfect thing, but everything else about them bother her. You know, it’s just kinda projecting herself onto them as well, and that becomes the the lens through which she views the world. I have this terrible flaw that’s never gonna let me be a perfect person. All these other people could be perfect, but they have, and they have these perfect parts, but most of the rest of them is rotten. And so, they too, you know, I won’t be able to connect with.  So, you know, it’s just this vicious view of the world. But, like you said, at the end of the day, she she becomes her little Frankenstein, puts together this monster, which is sort of her fever dream of the perfect person that she can finally connect with. But it requires a piece of herself too. It requires that acknowledgement that, you know, she too is mostly imperfect, but she’s got that one thing that she has to complete it with and then that kills her. Because then you’re not whole when you do that. Right. You know, you can’t rip those things out.

Craig:  Yeah. You know, ultimately, the reason that I recommend that I suggested this movie was because I saw it a long long time ago when I remembered it having an impact on me. Watching it again, I don’t think that it’s a perfect movie, but it’s different and a little bit strange, and I think that Angela Bettis’s performance in it is noteworthy. I I I don’t know. I mean, where do you fall on it?

Todd:  I think, you know, I look at this as very much in a way a product of its own time. I noticed that it didn’t get very good critical reviews. And I I mean, I’m sorry. It got very good critical reviews. Yes. But it did not get good commercial success.

Clip:  Right.

Todd:  And that really is maybe because there were a few films at this time. There was a little period of time where there were these groups of filmmakers doing movies like this. It was kind of a thing. I would Rian Johnson was the an editor on this movie, and he did this before now Rian Johnson now is huge. He’s been doing this the new Star Wars movies. Like, he’s very well respected director. But this was one of his first projects. And, about a year or 2 after this, again, in the early aughts, he wrote and directed Brick.  And I don’t know if you’ve ever seen Brick, but that’s this sort of Mhmm. Moody, multilayered, you know, very high concept, sort of, detective story, hardboiled detective story taking place in a high school. It’s got a lot of the same flavor. Hard Candy came out around this time. Again, this sort of, like Yeah. What you know, you said one of the characters in here was in Donnie Darko. You mean, you talk about a perfect. I mean, think about those Donnie Darko ish kinda movies.  This is one of them. And so maybe just of compared to some of the other films that were coming out around this time, this just wasn’t connecting with people enough. You know, it wasn’t weird enough maybe when it was stacked up against some of these other movies that were surrounding it, you know, being made by some of the same groups of filmmakers. And in this way, I feel like it actually stands the test of time. I think it probably if I had seen and saw that this movie was made now, I would think, yeah, this is like a brilliant it’s kind of a throwback to those things. Audition, again, Japan, but the same deal. I think that came out in 1999, and it still has the same the same flavor to it. But I I I just think there’s a lot of smart filmmaking going on here.  It’s like a person who crafts a really good novel. There are layers. There’s symbolism. There’s a lot to think about. There’s a lot to ponder and a lot to question. And there’s a lot to talk about afterwards. And it actually has something to say. Mhmm.  It actually has really good, smart, valuable things to say about life and relationships and who we are and how we view our the world and each other, how we treat each other. You know, it’s just I really I really like this movie.

Craig:  Well, good. I’m glad to hear it because I didn’t know. I didn’t know what you would think. It’s it’s different. It’s very different from the type of fair that we usually talk about. But that’s part of the reason that I wanted to do it too. I’m glad you enjoyed it.

Todd:  I did.

Craig:  And now we can cross it off the list. It’s been on our list for, what, like, 4 years. Now we can cross it off.

Todd:  We’ll maybe just do a couple more dark films. Maybe space them out a little bit. But I’m I’m interested in doing The Woman, very much so. That I’ve

Craig:  Oh, man. Yeah. I I honestly, I didn’t even realize that that was Lucky Mckee Todd. But now that I know that it is, it makes sense, because he definitely has a dynamic. But I would say that movie is significantly darker

Clip:  Wow.

Craig:  Than this one. Yeah.

Todd:  Well, let’s do it.

Craig:  Alright. Well, I’m glad you liked it. And folks, if you all haven’t seen that, you can rent it on Amazon or on, YouTube, either one. It’s out there, and I would say, check it out. But until, that time, you can find all of our many, many back episodes all out over the interwebs. Just just Google us. We’re all over the place. Any place where you can find podcasts, you’ll find us.  We also have a web page, and a Facebook page, and we love hearing from you. If you have any comments, questions, recommendations, suggestions, anything along those lines, we really enjoy talking to those of you those handful of you out there in the world who are listening.

Todd:  We enjoy talking to both of you.

Clip:  Thank you.

Todd:  You to both our listeners. We could maybe buy them all, you know, a meal at McDonald’s sometime.

Clip:  You know?

Craig:  Yeah. And take you out for a slushie or something.

Todd:  They’d all fit in the van pulled up to Sonic, wouldn’t they?

Craig:  Alright. Until next week. I am Craig.

Todd:  And I’m Todd.

Craig:  With 2 Guys and a Chainsaw.