The Toxic Avenger (1984)

Episode 169, 2 Guys and a Chainsaw Horror Movie Review Podcast

Todd: Hello, and welcome to another episode of Two Guys and a Chainsaw. I’m Todd.

Craig: And I’m Craig.

Todd: This is kind of a dual purpose that we’re doing the Toxic Avenger today from 1984. First of all, this is a request that’s been in our queue for a little while, ever since we did Poultry Geist from Troma, the infamous Troma Movie Studios. 1 of our regular listeners, Phantom Dark Dave, who has a podcast called Dave’s Pop Culture Podcast, which you should check out. He requested this, and it so happens that just recently it was announced there is a remake in the works. A reboot, if you will, with the original creators involved, Lloyd Kaufman and Michael   Hertz, being producers, and then a guy named Macon Blair who’s going to be writer and director. I don’t really know anything about this guy. He’s done a number of movies though. We did a horror film called Green Room not too long ago. Had you heard about that 1? Nope. Nope. Yeah, me neither. But anyway he’s going to be writer and director and this film is apparently in pre-production. Ah, for years, for decades really, there has been talk of rebooting or remaking this film. There have been several sequels. None of them have been terribly successful. There was   a TV series. It was a cartoon of all things, a crazy cartoon geared towards kids called The Toxic Crusaders that you might remember from the early 90s. And that only went on for about a season. I don’t think it really caught on, but it was sort of an environmentally aware cartoon about kind of like Captain Planet they were trying to mimic, I think, making Toxy this family child friendly kind of superhero who had a bunch of kids around him and they were running around kind of saving the planet more or less from the evil, I don’t   know, it’s like environmental smog monsters or something like that. I never watched it, did you?

Craig: I don’t remember ever watching it, but I do, I mean I can see it in my head. I remember the cartoon version.

Todd: I remember the theme song.

Craig: Oh good.

Todd: Toxic Crusaders, Toxic Crusaders, they’re gross but they still get girls.

Craig: Oh god, I love it when you sing.

Todd: I know you do, that’s why.

Craig: We gotta do, we have to do a musical episode someday

Todd: That’ll be a short episode I Know you’re better singer You just don’t do it as often as I do you need to jump no, it’s true Don’t leave me hanging out here. Do it next time.

Craig: No, fun trivia. Todd and I have sung together on stage before.

Todd: We have indeed and they didn’t boo us off, that I recall. It’s true.

Craig: No, I think we were pretty good.

Todd: I hold fond memories of that of that show But anyway, we’re here not to talk about us but to talk about the toxic Avenger through us and I want to hear about you Craig, what do you know about the Toxic Avenger?

Craig: Oh man, you know, not a lot. I mean, I’ve always, I guess, kind of been aware of it. I’ve seen the box art on the shelves back in the day, and I kind of knew what it was, but I never really… To be frank, there is an audience for trauma movies, and I’m not it. They’re just not my thing. And I’m really a little perplexed. I would really like to talk to somebody who is a big Troma fan and ask them what the big appeal is, because I kind of just don’t get it. I feel like   they’re doing something specific and with a specific purpose in mind, but I just don’t know that I get what the point is of intentionally making these bad movies.

Todd: I love the underlying assumption behind what you said and that is that you’re not talking to a trauma fan now.

Craig: Well no, I mean I know you are and and we’ve, you know, we’ve talked about it and and I kind of get it, I guess. I don’t know. Well, I

Todd: don’t know. This is this is a very, very specific like subgenre of film. It is It is so specific that there’s nobody else making movies like this. Nobody else makes movies like Troma does. And I think part of that is their appeal, is that they’re so different and so unique and so original in their intentional campiness, their mix of extreme humor with extreme violence, with extreme sex, but all of it is done in a way that is, I don’t know, anywhere from competent to passable. And sometimes there are moments of brilliance but people are so obsessed   with the studio and and not quite to the same extent that Roger Corman’s studio has really blossomed and given a start to a lot of really big directors and actors and writers and things that we have now. We talked about that before. Troma has a few. Maybe the most visible 1 right now is James Gunn. James Gunn, who’s Guardians of the Galaxy, Slither.

Craig: He’s huge now. He’s huge. Yeah, oh yeah.

Todd: He got his start with Troma, you know? He wrote Tromeo and Juliet.

Craig: Oh god, I didn’t know that.

Todd: Yeah, wrote Tromeo and Juliet. Oh, his brother’s in it. He has a big part in it. You know, his brother who he puts in a lot of his movies. He wrote several things for the studio. In fact, Lloyd Kaufman’s sort of autobiography slash the best thing we have from him as far as a book, as far as the starting of the studio, all I needed to know I learned from The Toxic Avenger was co-written by James Gunn. I mean, he probably did most of the writing, to be honest. You know, it’s like 1 of those deals.

Craig: Yeah, I mean, James Gunn’s 1 of the biggest guys in Hollywood right now. Oh yeah. So that’s kind of a big

Todd: deal. It is a big deal. So there are a few people like that. Even 1 of the actors in this movie, I mean, he’s not a big name, but you know, he’s gone on and been a very steady working actor in television. So there are a few stories like that, not a lot. But the 1 thing is certain is that this trauma has carved out such a little niche for itself that it somehow is always successful, and I don’t mean wildly successful, but I mean they don’t go bankrupt. Let’s put it that way. They’ve come close,   but they have such a core following that most of their movies are made so cheaply that all the money goes into the distribution and the marketing and, you know, whatever money has to go into. And almost everybody who works on these movies does it for free. And That even goes back to this film. Almost everybody who works on these movies does it for free just because they like trauma so much, they believe in what they do, they wanna say they were involved. And usually they end up doing it over such horrendous conditions. Yeah. Because they’re so   cheap. They’re getting cheese sandwiches on set and

Craig: you know They

Todd: put in big rooms and things like that But they do it they’ll travel from across the world to do it because people are so obsessed with it and and all of this Yet It’s almost like Hollywood doesn’t even know that trauma exists. Like most people don’t, you know? If you’re not into these movies, it’s not even a blip on your radar. How weird is that? Maybe a little bit more now in the internet age when people, you know, you can go down rabbit holes and you can find weird and wacky stuff you weren’t aware of. Maybe   more people are aware of Troma, but for the most of its history, you had to really either seek it out or stumble upon it or find somebody else who was a really big fan to even know what this movie was. And then chances are, I don’t know, 80, 20, 90, 10 that you’re not gonna like

Craig: it. Yeah.

Todd: You know?

Craig: Yeah, I don’t know. I mean, this movie, I started watching it and the first half maybe or I don’t know, maybe the first half hour is so goofy and like the acting is so hammy like just like ridiculously over-the-top hammy

Clip: look at that fucking guy come up boy Can’t even mop right.

Todd: He’s so stupid. He’s always got that shit-eating grin on

Clip: his face.

Todd: What’s he so happy about?

Clip: I hate that mop boy.

Todd: I think that creep’s coming over here.

Clip: Julie, you, smell something? Ew. Pee-ew.

Todd: What’s that stink? Gee, that’s funny. I don’t smell nothing.

Craig: And it’s clearly a choice, you know? It’s not like it’s just incompetence. It’s not. Like they’ve clearly made the choice to go this far over the top. The main character, Melvin, the guy that plays him in the beginning is just so, so, so ridiculous and hammy over the top. He’s supposed to be this big nerd or whatever. Again, you know, Troma is not afraid of throwing around the derogatory R word to describe its characters and that’s, you know, he’s playing, you know, kind of junior high, the way that people make fun of people with mental handicaps,   like that’s kind of what’s going on. And it was, I don’t know. It’s not even, I wasn’t offended. I’m not easily offended. I wasn’t offended. I understand what’s going on here. They’re not trying to be politically correct. That’s fine. I don’t have any problem with that. But Craig, did you really read

Todd: him as kind of mentally handicapped? I just read him as like super over the top stereotypical like nerd, loser kind of thing. Like straight out of like Mad Magazine, you know what I mean? I never read him as like he actually was like had a problem.

Craig: Well, I wouldn’t say that I did either, except for that other characters call him retarded. And that’s an ugly word that we used to throw around all the time.

Todd: Yeah, for just any.

Craig: I did. Yeah, I did. It was a different time. It’s not like I’m gonna look back and feel terrible about it now. It was just a different time and we’re Luckily, you know a little bit more sensitive to things like that now, but So I don’t know I mean just it was so over the top and I I wish that I could say I found his character endearing, but really he was just kind of annoying. So that first half hour I was kind of rolling my eyes like oh gosh you know so so goofy. Once he   actually turns into the Toxic Avenger I started to enjoy it more. I wouldn’t say that I liked it, but I appreciated it more. And I kind of, you know, there are… It’s so silly to even delve this deep into a movie like this, but you know, I felt like it kind of had something to say about environmentalism and also accepting people for their positive qualities as opposed to just what they look like on the surface. There are little bits and pieces of it that I can appreciate. The Toxic Avenger became a sympathetic character. I liked him.   I liked when he met a blind girl who could appreciate him for who he was and love him for who he was. Even though he’s this quote unquote monster hero, he was taking out the bad guys and I liked that the bad guys were getting their come-up and so there were things to appreciate about it. You know overall was it my cup of tea? Definitely not but it’s not that I couldn’t at least see some heart in it and see that, you know, there are things to appreciate about it. Well, you

Todd: know, I think some of this that you’re talking about really might also get to the heart of why Troma has a certain appeal. All of the 1 thing Troma is is consistent and Troma when we say Troma it’s the movie studio. It’s basically 2 guys. Michael Hertz is more or less behind the scene. He’s taken the director’s chair sometimes with Lloyd Kaufman. Lloyd Kaufman is the front and center guy. He’s like, you know, the Steve Jobs of Tromba. He’s always out there relentlessly promoting his films. He is the by far the face of the movie and   he’s a pretty goofy dude. But if you look into their history, it’s kind of interesting. He graduated like the 60s from Yale with a degree. He was going to be a social worker, basically, and I think his degree was in Chinese studies because he thought maybe China had something at that time, you know, that was worth looking into because they were you know going through a massive upheaval and stuff and he was just very Socially concerned about the world and what’s going on? He even before he dove into the workforce He went I think and joined   the Peace Corps for a while and taught in Chad like, you know a place with no electricity No, nothing or whatever and really got exposed to this sad, sad, you know, side of the world. And he even said at 1 point, even with China and Chinese studies, that was 1 of his biggest disappointments, that what China did ultimately at that time anyway, you know, the Cultural Revolution, everything like that, turned out to be horrible for their people. And it wasn’t this grand, you know, uprising of the lower class that it was supposed to be. And again,   it just became the elites are running everything and everybody else is kind of beaten down. And I think that really shaped his worldview. And if you look at Troma’s films, now they started out doing sex comedies. Lloyd Kaufman himself, such an interesting character, and if you’re all interested in him, you should read his book. I have his book. I have a couple of his books. I’m really just fascinated by the studio and by him but the only reason he got into film after he was a little jaded on this is he had some friends who were   major Hollywood producers and he did some work on some major productions Rocky was edited on trauma’s stuff He did location scouting for Saturday Night Fever was a big reason why they chose the big disco that they that they did it in. And he did some work with Oliver Stone, wrote and produced a couple a movie or 2 with him. And then he started doing these sex comedies because that would pay the bills and they got this sort of surprise hit with a movie called squeeze play which is revolving around baseball and It’s even said that Bob   Clark or at least Lloyd Kaufman says that Bob Clark who we love who did porkies actually visited them and took notes and talked with them a lot while they were doing squeeze play to figure out what they were doing so he could try to mimic it for Porky’s because what they were doing was really working. But you know they just didn’t really get a lot of success and Lloyd Kaufman basically read some article maybe in the New York Times or someplace that said that horror is dead as a genre. So he was like, okay, we’ll do   a horror film. His idea was that they would do this horror film and they would call it health club, health club horror, I think, or health club massacre or something like that. And that was this film. That was the script. So this movie wasn’t really originally intended to be a sort of superhero movie. I imagine that when they got it all together and they looked at it, they thought it is kind of a superhero film and so they call it the Toxic Avenger. But this was meant first and foremost to be a horror movie and you   know when the first screen comes up it says which is a great thing for anybody who’s trying to market a film, warning this film contains scenes of extreme violence. Which is smart, I’m sure it played really well at the driving crowds and things like that. It really made this film notorious at the time. And now we’ve kind of seen it all. But at that time, to see the level of extreme violence in this film, especially played against the utter campiness and sort of silliness, almost a Mel Brooks, like a lowbrow Mel Brooks kind of way. Oh   yeah, definitely. It’s an odd mix, it’s a really jarring mix. And again, especially back in the 80s when this movie came out It was like unlike anything. I think anybody had ever seen really

Craig: well It’s fun. You know I had never even drawn that connection, but it is kind of Mel Brooks like you know It’s it’s over-the-top ridiculous humor and silly silly situations and silly silly jokes. And very stereotypically drawn characters who are kind

Clip: of

Todd: on the note but played up to the hilt, right?

Craig: Yes, yes. And I think that Mel Brooks does it better, but I can definitely see whether it’s an influence or if it’s just a parallel, I don’t know, but I can definitely see that. And there is some charm in some of this, But you know, I saw that thing about the extreme violence and then you say we’ve kind of seen it all and it’s true. I mean there there are a lot of like gruesome effects, which I’m sure we’ll talk about and and they’re they’re played well and and you know for horror fans, it’s fun. But   1 of the things that I kind of, I don’t know, I hesitate to say respect, but I will say it, that I respect about this studio is that they are willing to push boundaries that other studios won’t push. They’re not afraid to point shotguns at babies and they’re not afraid to blow away a seeing-eye dog and run over a kid’s head. And you know, like these things that just, in a big studio movie would be oh no no that’s that’s too much we can’t do that you know these these guys aren’t afraid to go there. Quite   nonchalantly. Yeah you know. Kudos.

Todd: Yeah it’s just another scene in this movie really. It’s not played up. It’s not, you know, it’s just we move on from it. And yeah, you’re right. When I first saw this movie, this is my recollection. Sometimes I question my recollections, But I remember seeing the covers in the video stores and really wanting to see this movie. And my recollection anyway is that my dad was like, all right, we’ll go see it. Now I’m not sure if it was rated at the time or if it was R. I have a really hard time my dad, knowing   my dad being the kind of guy he was, to remember that he would just rent a movie that could be potentially like this without watching it first. But my recollection anyway was that we sat down and we watched it together and I know I was young at the time when I saw it. It was probably late 80s. I wasn’t even maybe even in middle school yet And I remember being pretty shocked by 1 scene in particular, which it turns out, turned out to be 1 of the most notorious scenes in this movie. And that is that,   you know, a couple of the main characters in this film, that 1 of the things that they do is they like to run around and hit people with their cars.

Craig: Yeah, it’s horrible. It’s so sick. Like death race, you know? Like they have a scoring system.

Clip: Yeah. Julie, Julie, the points, the rules, what   are they?

Todd: OK, let me see if I can remember the whole list. Now

Clip: Jews, Womps,

Todd: Niggers, and Chinks. They’re all worth 25 points. But Puerto Ricans? They’re worth 30 points. Now kids under 12? They’re worth double points. And I mean, as a kid, I thought this was absolutely horrible. And then the scene where they drive through and they hit this kid on a bike and he gets bloodied in the road but they see he’s not dead yet so they roll back over him and crush his head and the head crushing is a pretty gruesome bit. It is. Even though it was done very cheaply they just injected a melon with a bunch   of you know red colored K-Rose syrup and stuff and put a wig on it, just the way it’s presented is absolutely convincing. And it’s disturbing. And I think that that casts like a pall a bit over the film, you know, especially for me at that time. Whoa, I’ve never seen this in a movie before. These people are totally horrible people and I can’t believe I just saw that. There’s something to be said for that. It’s an exploitation film, right? But it’s still, there’s something about that that works. Does that make sense?

Craig: Yeah, it does. And there are shocking scenes. And frankly, just out of context, like if you were to see these things completely out of context, it’s primarily, well, no, not primarily, it’s entirely practical effects and for as low budget as these movies are, they really put care into these effects and they look pretty darn convincing. They really are. There’s 1 scene, well, okay, the whole movie is about this nerdy kid who works at a health club and he’s super, super, super, super, super, super nerdy and there are these like, Super, super, super, super jocky guys. Right,   total douchebags, and they’re douchebag girlfriends who are hot, but awful, and they play a prank on him, and he ends up, because Tromaville is the toxic waste dumping capital of the world, they play this prank on him where they’re super, they humiliate him, you know, they get him to dress up in this unitard with a tutu, and they humiliate him in front of everybody and they chase him through this health club and he ends up jumping out a window and falling into this toxic waste. That’s all you need to know. And then he turns into this   mutated big buff guy and then he’s the toxic Avenger and I think that the suggestion is that something from the toxic waste has awakened something in him that drives him then to go after villains, bad people. And so that’s what he does.

Clip: He starts

Craig: going after bad people and killing them, basically. But there are just these scenes where, and that’s in the second half of the movie, it just kind of becomes that. It just kind of becomes him being kind of this anti-hero going around taking care of all the bad guys. And there’s 1 scene in particular where these 3 very weird eclectic thugs break into this Mexican restaurant and they’re robbing the restaurant but that’s almost secondary to the fact that they’re just terrorizing these patrons and 1 guy kind of stands up and tries to be the hero.

Clip: Hey, why don’t you leave her alone? We’ll give you our money if you want money. Hey, look pal, why don’t you just let everyone go and keep me as a hostage, huh?   That’s an idea. Ain’t it, Frank?

Craig: No thanks. And that’s a pretty gory effect. And then there’s a lady with a baby and 1 of the guys taunts her with the shotgun and points the shotgun at the baby. And I read that the actor who played this actually quit the movie. Like after they filmed this scene where he had to point a shotgun at the baby, he was done. Like he’s like, I’m not doing this anymore. And you know, that is, You know, that’s pretty taboo stuff that you’re getting into there. And then there’s a blind girl, this beautiful blonde blind girl. And   first, 1 of the guys starts tormenting her and so the dog starts barking at him and he tells the other guy, take care of this dog and they shoot the dog. And you know, I hate that. I hate violence against animals, but I had read about it in advance So I was prepared and I knew how they did it and it was fine. I wasn’t all that and it’s so over the top gory. You can you can really pretty easily suspend your disbelief and understand that

Todd: the dog’s fine. It’s all right. OK, Craig, the dog’s fine. I know.

Craig: But then again, something else that really disturbs me, and what you mentioned before is what is almost the most shocking about it, is that they just do these things so nonchalantly like oh it’s just no big deal like 1 of the bad guys makes this blind girl stand up and he’s taunting her and talking about how hot she is and he has some terrible punny line.

Clip: You wanna   meet my friend Ben?

Todd: You make everything all right. Just let me introduce you to Ben. Ben Dover!

Craig: And he bends her over the table and is preparing to rape her right there in broad daylight right in front of this entire restaurant full of people and God, it’s just it really disturbed me and like it never gets there. You know, there is the suggestion that he’s undoing his pants and he’s got her bent over and all the people around her acting so shocked. And luckily our hero, the Toxic Avenger, comes in and in a long violent sequence takes all these guys out. But you know, it’s just that approach to these really kind of taboo   situations that it makes them stand out as a studio, you know? I can’t think of many other studios that are doing this. I don’t know if we’ve ever mentioned it before, but fans of the podcast, we have a lost episode, which will remain lost. But we, we, we tried to record a podcast over the movie Street Trash and that’s the only other movie that I can think of that I’ve seen or that we’ve done that did the same sort of stuff. Just really kind of disturbing and the trivia behind this folks is that we tried to   record it and something went wrong. And that has happened to us before, very, very early in the podcast, the same thing happened to us with the Lost Boys, and we were like, darn it, and so we recorded it again. Kind of having the same conversations that we’d had before. We couldn’t

Todd: bring ourselves to do it this time.

Craig: We couldn’t bring ourselves, no. With Street Trash, it was so disturbing and gross that we’re like, nope, can’t do it again.

Todd: We hated the movie, we hated talking about the movie. We didn’t wanna think about the movie anymore. No. And you’re right, like that movie had, it was different though, you know? I think it was more mean-spirited or just more clueless, you

Craig: know Yeah, oh, yeah, absolutely

Todd: the nice thing about this and I think this is why this stuff is shocking but you can give it a long wide pass is that they don’t want to make these movies that are just mean-spirited. Even from the beginning, Lloyd Kaufman said when he was writing this horror movie, he wanted to put a lot of humor into it because he didn’t want people to just be scared. He wanted them to laugh. And I think that’s kind of at the core of what they do. Everything is humor. Now it’s extremely low brow, it’s extremely juvenile type humor,   but it’s mixed in there and it kind of has to be, right? Otherwise it does. It would come across as gross and horrible. And I think the reason their movies, and I think I was getting this earlier, but I got a little off track, is that almost every single 1 of these trauma films has this same core social political thrust. And that is that the people who are in charge are in charge, and they’re really bad, and all they do is take advantage of everybody else.

Craig: Yes.

Todd: And the people who are evil are really, really evil in these movies. They’re just amped up to a thousand, right? A thousand percent evil. And so, you know, they just do it that way. There’s nothing subtle about it. And I think that’s probably why these films do appeal to a certain segment of the population who, who worries about this a lot or who can really get behind this message. And this is a kind of a catharsis, right? You can experience this movie and you can kind of feel, yeah, we’re sticking it to the man. Because in   the end, this monster, this Frankenstein is everybody’s hero, right? Right. He overcomes the insanely ridiculously over the top mayor who’s huge and fat and all he does is sit around and get massaged and eat giant sandwiches and make backroom cigar deals that are going to basically kill people. And he gets it at the end too, right? But that’s Tromaville and most of their movies take place in Tromaville and that’s the story of Tromaville is that it’s supremely corrupt and the people have almost no chance and these movies take place in that environment. You know, we had   that same thing with Poultry Geist, right? Where it was the corporation that comes in and doesn’t care about people, doesn’t care that they’re feeding them garbage that could kill them. And so, you know, these bad stuff, bad things happen to them and eventually the day wins out.

Craig: I think that that is what redeems these movies to some extent to me, is that the bad guys, They’re capitalists, they’re greedy, they’re gluttonous and horrible people. And, you know, to be fair, they’re terribly one-note, but, you know, they’re set up as villains. And then the heroes are these underdog guys. In Poultry Geist it was the little geeky fast food worker, and this 1 it’s the little geeky janitor. But they’re the good guys. They want to help people and they want to do the right thing. So to have these kind of underdog hero stories, I think   just about everybody can appreciate that or relate to that on some level. And that is redemptive for me. You know in the end just like you said the people of Tromaville initially you know they’re horrified because this guy he looks like a monster. Ultimately he’s not really that monstrous but he’s very different, you know? But once people see that what he’s doing is for the good of the town and for the good of the people, they get behind him. And when the corrupt mayor and the corrupt police force set out on this mission to kill and   destroy him for their own selfish motives, ultimately the people literally surround him to protect him.

Todd: Yeah, from the military,

Craig: yeah. Yeah, you know, this guy, he’s a good guy. He’s ugly, but he’s not doing anything wrong, and the people appreciate him. And by the end, it becomes a hero story. The town celebrates him and he gets the girl. It’s a happy ending.

Todd: The movie has a happy ending. Yeah, and there’s even a little kernel in there of there’s a scene where he takes out this woman who goes to a laundromat and at first You know this woman shows up at this laundromat She’s this little old lady and she hands her laundry over and she has some conversation with the guy and then for no apparent reason the Toxic Avenger shows up and basically kills this woman by tossing her in the dryer for a while. And you’re like, whoa, what was that about?

Craig: I was really confused. I wrote that down in my notes. He killed this little old lady for no reason because up until now, they’ve even commented on it several times that you know some scientist says oh the toxic waste must have triggered something in him that makes him rage against bad people but only bad people And then you see him kill this little old lady, I’m like, what? I thought he was

Todd: a good guy. And they really withhold this from you, and it’s really pretty smart actually. Like he sits down then, as he comes back in from this, he’s coming back to the home that he’s created with his girlfriend and he sits down.

Craig: In the toxic waste dump. In the toxic

Todd: waste dump. They’ve decorated and everything, there was a whole montage. But he comes down and he sits down and he says, I don’t know what’s coming over me. I’m feeling, you know,

Craig: I’m out of control.

Todd: I’m out of control. And you’re thinking, oh my gosh, maybe he is. Well, it actually turns out that this woman had did was kind of bad, right? She had some sons.

Craig: She was a white slaver.

Todd: White slaver. That’s right. So she’s like the worst. Right. As a slaver in general is bad. So yeah, it turns out that that’s that but it’s interesting that the movie throws that possibility in for just a few minutes, you know, and there’s there’s, there’s some interesting things going on here. I really, what I really like about this movie is, is that it just, it’s fun to watch. I really enjoyed watching this movie, probably more than you did, but it has an energy and a focus that I feel like Troma’s later movies lack. You know, we watch   Poultry Geist. And like you said, Poultry Geist feels like it’s just 1 site gag after another. It’s just a joke a second, which you know, is its own thing. This movie moves, right? This movie starts out, it’s got an energy that I feel like never lets up and it barrels through the plot but it doesn’t overstay its welcome I think anyway and it’s got just an intensity and an energy about it that that just keeps me glued to the screen and that scene that you talked about in the the taco restaurant or the Mexican place or   whatever the Mexican place which is literally the name of the I thought that was a fake name but apparently that was actually the name of the place they filmed it in it looks like an old taco bell doesn’t it when they used to have

Clip: kind of

Todd: yeah brick and arches and stuff but that scene just encapsulates I think what I loved about this movie I thought the villains when they came in were super hyper amped up like they’re on PCP or something they’re over the top

Craig: they reminded me a little bit of do you remember Weird Science when they had that big party and like the biker gang broke in and like terrorized them? That’s what these guys reminded me of. Like they were so over the top, but it was the 80s. Yeah, it was, right?

Todd: But I liked that guy, the 1 who was kind of painted with half of his face, who was holding the gun. Uh-huh, Leroy. I honestly thought he was like 1 of the best actors in the movie, to be honest, even though it’s a movie where it’s hard to tell whether the acting’s good because everybody’s just hamming it up. Yeah. There’s just an energy about it and just that evilness. So, you know, the scene goes on and it, but that is, you know, we’ve seen a lot of bad movies and we’ve seen a lot of really incompetent   films and we’ve seen laughable fight scenes even from really, really good movies. And I felt like at least the action in this film, especially in this scene, is just intense and good.

Craig: Well, and if nothing else, it’s creative. I mean, he kills all 3 of them in creative ways. Like, the leader of the gang, I feel like is kind of this Samuel L. Jackson type guy. I would have never noticed. I read about it before I even saw the movie, but apparently this guy was an amputee And he only had 1 arm. So the way that Toxy kills him is he rips his arm off and then beats him with it. Him and his buddies. It’s funny. Yeah. But that doesn’t kill him. Eventually, So like this is all   in a taco shop. So 1 of the guys he kills in the fryer by frying his hands, which is kind of stupid, but all right, whatever. And then the other guy, he makes like a sundae out of his face and then like uses the milkshake stirring machine to like stab him through the throat. Oh man. And the third guy he throws in the pizza oven. And It’s so silly and it plays out over probably 5 minutes. That’s the other thing about this movie. There are multiple scenes, mostly fight scenes, that go on for a long time   and they are not poorly choreographed. No, they’re great. They’re pretty darn good. Mm-hmm. And so there are these big fight scenes that go on for a long time, and that’s kind of fun. There’s also a car. It’s not a car chase scene because nobody’s chasing them, but it’s this fast-paced fight in a car that goes on for a long time.

Todd: And that’s good too.

Craig: Yeah yeah I mean they’re they’re well paced and well filmed I guess I don’t know I mean they’re exciting.

Clip: Yeah.

Craig: I was actually kind of surprised because they go on for longer than you would expect a scene like this to go on for Especially in a low-budget film, but it doesn’t feel like a slog like oh, okay. I get it. You’re fighting Let’s wrap this up. No, I mean, it’s pretty engaging stuff. I was impressed.

Todd: Yeah, that’s kind of what I was getting at, you know, is I just thought that just epitomized the movie in general. The fight scenes were great. They were well-staged, well-choreographed. The acting was over the top, Hammy, but Once you kind of establish that, it doesn’t come across as bad, right? Because it is what it is. It’s not realistic. Like I said, it’s kind of like Mad Magazine really sort of playing out in front of you. It’s all kind of a joke. But then the violence, and even like you said, the the gore effects are surprisingly good   both for this era and this kind of film. We’ve seen so much crap, so much crap, which is, you know, way, way beneath this. And so somehow, you know, even though again, it’s not everybody’s cup of tea, it all kind of works for me. And especially after you’ve seen it once or twice and you kind of know what you’re expecting, I was really looking forward to seeing this movie again because I remembered it being a fun ride and I was hoping I wouldn’t be disappointed. And it turns out I wasn’t. I mean, I enjoyed watching it   again. And it has been years since I’ve seen this movie. And I was worried because, like I said, their later stuff is not always that great. It’s a little plotting sometimes, and it’s a little tedious. They did 1 called Terror Firmware, and that came out, and I bought this 3 DVD set of it, and I was excited to watch it and I could barely get through it because it was just, they were just trying too hard. And this just epitomizes an era when they were really doing it. I mean, they had this movie, Troma’s War, which   is a film that I love that they were really hoping was going to be their mainstream breakout hit, but they put way too much silliness into it could have been it could have been a pretty decent action war movie for its time. But then they put in dumb stuff like the there was like Siamese twins, like generals in charge of it all. And the guy who was like, they were spreading AIDS. That was the big bad thing that the guy was gonna do is gonna drop some AIDS bomb on everybody. And then he has a pig   nose. And I mean, it got really a little too trauma, which I think the original writer of that film really was fighting against, but Lloyd Kaufman kind of was like, no, we gotta throw this stuff in there. And it probably turned out in there, well, it almost bankrupted the studio. They were really banking on that movie and it didn’t. They did a couple sequels to this movie that were not so good.

Craig: A couple? Aren’t there like… There are 3. I feel like they’re like, oh gosh, there’s a… Yeah. Which surprises me. Have you seen them? Have you

Todd: watched the sequels? Oh yeah. Oh yeah, I have. You know, I was really excited too because the second 1 takes place in Japan and it was shot in Japan, most of it. It was weird as I remember the story anyway because I haven’t read about it recently but as I remember it you know he was talking with some distributors and they were asking you know if he had a sequel to Toxic Avenger and he said oh yeah we’re working on right now And basically sold the sequel to them right then and there, and then turned around   and told his partner, well, we got to start going on a sequel to Toxic Avenger. And he ended up shooting so much footage for it. And it ended up being so long that he decided to chop it into 2. So there was a part 2 and a part 3 and it really shows. I mean it’s both of them are not really that great. There’s a fourth 1 that they did where they just I mean literally I think in the beginning the narrator says we’re gonna pretend that the last 2 didn’t exist And it’s called Citizen Toxie   and I remember thinking that that 1 was much better But I know critically that 1 also wasn’t received very well So, you know Troma’s kind of got its limits and a lot of that just has to do with its market appeal You know, it’s just so niche. Yeah, It’s so niche that it is they keep making movies like this. They’re they’re not gonna break out and make millions of dollars You know, they’re just not

Craig: I just don’t get the impression and who knows, you know people have to be business minded in any industry, but it just doesn’t seem like that is their primary concern. If it were they wouldn’t be making movies the way that they are. You know, it seems like they have every intention of appealing to a particular audience and they have a particular style and there’s something admirable about that I would say. And you know, I’ve only seen this and poultry geist, but I feel like I have a general idea of the stuff that you can expect. And   you can expect, you know, kind of goofball, dialogue and quippy jokes. That was something else too. Like the guy in the beginning, Melvin the janitor, I just didn’t find him appealing at all. I found it difficult to even be sympathetic towards him because he just was so weird and awkward. He wasn’t real, right? I mean, just wasn’t real. Right, and like the acting is so over the top. And that’s fine, whatever. You know, there’s 1 scene where 2 of the villainous young people, Slug and his girlfriend, whatever her name were, they’re having sex in the locker   room of this health club and Melvin happens upon them and he just stands there and kind of giggles while he’s watching them and like, what are you doing? Like, turn around, walk away. But then when he becomes the toxic Avenger, he changes entirely. I have to assume it’s a different actor because he’s a much different body type. He’s big and beefy and his voice drops. There’s even a joke where his mom’s like, oh, my son’s finally gone through puberty, yay. And it’s funny because when he’s monstrous and when he’s attacking people, it’s all like rah, rah.   But then when he talks, it’s like…

Clip: Hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, it’s all right. I’m not going to hurt you. Are you OK?

Craig: It’s almost kind of like this sophisticated voice, which is funny. But I also thought that it was funny that once he actually gets in to start taking out the bad guys, then he becomes quippy. Like almost like Freddy Krueger quippy.

Clip: And you can tell all your scum friends that things are gonna change in this town. I’m not just another pretty face. Like

Craig: As he’s beating people up and killing them, he’s got these quips. That humor is there, and I can only imagine that that is an undercurrent of most of their films you’re gonna get the extreme gore I wouldn’t say that this is necessarily any more violent than many other horror movies that I’ve seen but with you know the Practical effects and lots and lots of blood you’re gonna get raunchy sex jokes. You’re gonna get lots of boobies Again, like I said, I just I really really believe that there is there has to be because they keep making   movies There’s got to be an audience for these. And so fans of these movies, you know, good for you. I’m glad that they’re out there for you. It doesn’t necessarily appeal to me, but even just, and this happens all the time, You know, I came into this thinking, oh man, how am I gonna talk about this movie that I didn’t really like? Even just talking to you and hearing it from the perspective of somebody who does, you know, have some fondness for these movies, it makes me reconsider them and think, you know, they’re appealing to some   people and I get that. I appreciate a studio and the people behind it who have heart and who have a vision and who are doing their thing. So more power to you.

Todd: And you know, to be fair, trauma has always been a mixed bag for me Too I don’t think I’m punk enough You know to really get obsessed about their movies or to really you know enjoy them at that at that level or

Craig: Todd I’m sorry to tell you this, but you’re not punk enough

Todd: But you know I think just some of the earlier films, again, they have a kind of heart and a focus to them that some of the later movies don’t. I think that if I were to make some recommendations, If a person out there wanted to see some more trauma films, first of all I would say check out The Toxic Avenger before you see Poultry Geist. You know? Yeah. Check out some earlier stuff. I’ve seen Squeeze Play and some of their earlier sex comedies. They’re perfectly fine. They have 1 called The Big Turn-On, I think, 1 called   The Battle of Love’s Return, and they’re pretty typical stuff you’d see on like USA Up All Night, you know? Yeah. There’s nothing special about them now. Maybe there was at that time, but they’re fun and they’re fine for what they are. But Troma’s War I really enjoyed just for the action and the inventiveness of it. It is a pretty good fun little story and it just has some of those silly over-the-top elements. I really enjoyed, at least remember enjoying, Sergeant Kabuki Man NYPD, which is maybe, in my opinion, the closest thing that they get to something   a little more mainstream. It’s a ridiculous idea. It’s like this police, cop, detective guy. I can’t even remember what happens to him, but anyway, he turns into…it’s another type of superhero where he’s this sort of Japanese samurai, not samurai, but Kabuki superhero. And he has like, you know, flying chopsticks and silly things like that that he does. But the story itself is trying to be a little more serious, a little more inventive. And then, Romeo and Juliet, that kind of came at a time when I think they were about to call it quits. And probably due   to the quality of James Gunn’s writing and ideas, he took… What they were doing really, that was the same time that Baz Luhrmann’s Romeo and Juliet came out Which was a good movie and it really took that modern take on Romeo and Juliet So this was sort of like their modern take on his modern take on Romeo and Juliet in the trauma universe

Craig: It got quite a bit of buzz. I remember hearing quite a bit about that when it came out.

Todd: And honestly, it works. I mean, I found it times a little too much, and I found it at times to be a little bit to sit through, like maybe just sometimes Shakespeare in general. Sure. But I think if you wanted to see something that’s very different, but again along similar lines of what they do, I mean it still has that trauma spirit, but it’s just not a bunch of over the top violence and silly campiness. I checked that 1 out as well.

Craig: Well, and the thing is, I didn’t love this movie, but I actually thought that the idea behind it was kind of fun. And I can see why somebody would have thought, you know what? This might make a good cartoon for kids. I don’t know that it would fly in our PC culture today with the whole toxic waste and disfigurement and that kind of stuff, But ultimately the message is good. You know, the message is it doesn’t matter that he looks like this. He’s a good guy and he’s helping out. 1 of my favorite parts of the   movie is there’s a hero montage in the second half where yeah, he’s fighting, bad guy sometimes, but then he’s also walking little old ladies across the street.

Todd: And- That’s right. Like- Literally. Yeah.

Craig: And other little cute things like that, you know, like he’s just kind of going around being a good deed doer. And I could see how you could run with those elements of being a good person and it doesn’t matter what you look like and you know fighting for the environment you know like that’s though these are good messages for kids I can see how it would work like that and I also am fascinated by the idea of a reimagining or a remake. It’s interesting to know that the original people are behind it because really what I   would like to see happen and who knows what will happen but I would like to see them take it a little bit more seriously, I think. Maybe a little bit more traditionally. Gosh, I hate that I’m even saying that, but don’t make the nerdy guy so obnoxiously over the top. You know, make him an everyman. You know, make him me. You know, the guy that’s, you know, just not super popular in a world of beautiful people. And then something, you know, it’s not unlike many superhero origin stories where you’ve got, you know, the underdog and something   happens, you know, they get bit by a radioactive spider or whatever and then they have these powers or whatever. I feel like they could go a little bit less over the top. And I don’t know, it could be interesting.

Todd: We’ll see what happens. I think there’s no question, I mean, this idea definitely has staying power. That’s probably why we’ve seen it kind of get touched on throughout the decades. And of course now with superhero movies being huge, everybody’s trying to mine this. You would hope and think and pray really that they take a little bit more mainstream approach to this and do it so that it could finally appeal to a mass audience and maybe get some legs behind it.

Craig: Fans of this movie would probably throw up, you know? Probably. Suggestion, you know? Oh yeah, you’re gonna make it all mainstream just like everybody else. And I get that, you know? If this is something that you’ve grown up with, something that you’re a big fan of, you might see that as a bastardization of the source material, but I think there’s room for both.

Todd: Yeah, there’s gotta be a mix somewhere in between, and Hopefully this guy is gonna honor that.

Craig: Well, we’ll see. I would give it a shot. I didn’t love the movie, but I loved, or at least appreciated, some of the concepts behind it. And ultimately, I was charmed by Toxy. Aw. I mean, I wouldn’t wanna make out with him like the blind girl did.

Todd: Like the blind girl.

Craig: But I’m glad that they had a fulfilling sexual relationship.

Todd: They sure did. They didn’t hold that back from us either, did they? No. God.

Clip: Either did they? Well

Todd: thank you again for listening to another episode and also thank you to Phantom Dark Dave for suggesting this. He has a nice podcast, it’s called Dave’s Pop Culture Podcast, and he’s actually recently interviewed some people like Bits of Price’s daughter. So you can go and check that out. As well as our podcast, anywhere that you find podcasts by searching 2 Guys and a Chainsaw, You can also find our website, twoguys.red40net.com, where we have all of our back episodes posted, or you can stream us live there. Also find us on Facebook and let us know if there   are any films that you would like us to see. We love getting requests, and we just like having conversations with you about the movies that you’ve seen. Until next time, I’m Todd. And I’m Craig. With 2 Guys and a Chainsaw.