Legend (1985)

Episode 504, 2 Guys and a Chainsaw Horror Movie Review Podcast

Todd: Hello, and welcome to another episode of Two Guys and a Chainsaw. I’m Todd. 

Craig: And I’m Craig. 

Todd: Well, we’re doing another tribute episode and I have to admit this one’s a bit of a difficult one for me. Um- 

Craig: It has been a rough week. 

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: Like it’s been an emotional week for me. I don’t know about you but man, it was a rough week for me. 

Todd: You know, I don’t usually get so emotional as to cry when a celebrity dies, but this week for only the second and third time in my life, I, uh, I did shed some tears.

First of all was Dolly Parton And that was horrible. Yeah. But- 

Craig: Wept like a baby. 

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: We’ll talk more about that later. 

Todd: We’ll probably record a little something for our, um, patrons. 

Craig: For our patrons, 

Todd: yeah. Yeah, to talk about Dolly Parton. Not really horror related, but darn it, that’s what our patrons get.

Sometimes they get life stuff. 

Craig: Yeah. Yeah, and I’ve got a lot to say. 

Todd: Just turn the mic over to you for that one. This one is a man who I’ve been telling everyone for years since I was a kid is my favorite actor of all time. Tim Curry died at the age of 80? 

Craig: Yep. 

Todd: Uh, what can I say? I… Uh, he’s been with me since my childhood.

The roles that he has performed on screen have just captivated me throughout every decade of my life. I just saw a little bit of myself in this man. The more I got to know him, the more I thought, “Wow,” uh, he f-… He sounds a little bit like me in terms of how he approaches life, skittered through his career, and just really just done interesting things, just goes around and does the stuff that interests him and is quite good at what he does, and, uh, was pretty generally beloved all around.

I- 

Craig: Yeah … 

Todd: much like Dolly Parton, I can’t think of a person who had any complaints about Tim Curry. 

Craig: No. 

Todd: And, uh, obviously, one of the most iconic movies, uh, in, in America of the last 50 years, The Rocky Horror Picture Show. God, so many, so many movies. A- Rooster in Annie, huh, Wadsworth in Clue, the concierge in Home Alone 2.

God, he was in Muppet Treasure Island and the Three Musketeers. Right. The Hunt for Red October. He played Pennywise. Huh, talking about horror, probably my favorite Pennywise is still him. And- Yeah … he scared a whole generation of people, and I really think turned the world against clowns single-handedly with that role.

I know. You said that. We’ve said that a lot. We did that on this show. We also did The Worst Witch on this show one Halloween. 

Clip: Oh, right. 

Todd: And he had a turn in there that I was surprised by, but you grew up with, that was just goofy and silly and fun and very Tim Curry. Yet he went on also to do hundreds of roles almost in, in- 

Craig: S- prolific

Todd: yeah, in voice work, th- things that I didn’t even realize. And that was where he– I feel like when you, when you read his autobiography Which I did. You sort of feel like that was a thing that he discovered a, a passion for and really settled into that through life, and then sadly had his voice taken away from him for a while and with his stroke.

Was still able to do some acting in some movies- Yeah … and was still able to do some audiobooks and things like that, but certainly not to the degree that he had before, and that had to be frustrating for the guy. But man, he kept a good spirit about it all, kept a sense of humor, bright mind. I’ve seen so many interviews with him even over the last several years, not just because he died this last week.

And it just so happened that I had been doing a lot of traveling this summer, and one of the three or four books that I had going while I was on the plane and resting in the various places I was, was his autobiography Vagabond, his memoir. Mm-hmm. Which you had recommended to me, and I’m glad you did. You had recommended I listen to the audiobook, but as much as I wanted to hear his voice, I don’t– I just prefer to read things.

I don’t… As a guy weirdly a guy who records audiobooks, uh, doesn’t really like audiobooks too much. That’s me. So it was so strange that two days later after I finished it finally got the news of his passing. 

Oh, wow! 

It was very weird. It made me not want to start the auto-autobiography, which is next on my list.

Oh my God, I know. I know. I don’t want her to be that third person yet. Ugh. So anyway, there’s so much to say about Tim Curry, but I’ve done enough talking. Uh, Craig, I know he means at least as much to you as he does to me. 

Craig: Yeah. Like, you know, our– I think our s- stories are similar. I, I grew up watching him.

Clue was one that my friends, when I got into college, all my friends had grown up with and I, I hadn’t really seen it. I, I had seen bits and pieces of it here and there. I didn’t really see that one until college, but it was, it was Stephen King’s It. Stephen King’s It was my sick day movie always. If I had a sick day at home, i- you know, that was one of them.

That, and The Goonies and Troll, that was kind of my, my go-to marathon. But also from the movie that we’re talking about today, Legend. I loved this movie growing up as a kid, and it was one of those that I don’t think that we ever had for whatever reason. You know, my dad would tape things off HBO or, or illegally copy things from the video store occasionally but we never had Legend and so when it would pop up on HBO or wherever it would pop up it was so exciting and Alan and I were watching it together last night and he said the same thing.

He said when he was a kid and he would stumble across this movie w- at whatever point in the movie he would stumble across it, th-that was it. Whatever else was going on ended and you sat and you watched Legend. And of course we’re gonna have a lot to say about the movie but you know I, I, I think he’s the best part of it but like Dolly Parton, like Paul Reubens, like God protector Cassandra Peterson, I, I mean these really honest to God are my childhood legends and my heroes.

You know? These are the kind of people that I… Uh, uh, I, I recognized it then but I don’t think that I coulda– have articulated what it was then. I recognize now that it’s these people Are all, were all unapologetically themselves. They absolutely refused to apologize for who they were and, and they just, you know, lived out loud and, and I…

Yeah, I, I, I listened to his audiobook which listeners, I recommend if, if you like audiobooks at all because he, he, he narrates it himself and he’s so charming, and that’s, I think, part of his appeal. He’s charming, he’s mysterious, he’s sexy, he’s a little bit sinister. I mean, he’s just s- got so much charisma.

He’s enchanting. Of course, in the wake of his death I’ve seen a lot of clips from him. I’ve seen a lot of tributes and, and whatnot, but I saw him in an interview probably midway through his career. He was still young, but not Rocky Horror young. And, and some, you know, very stiff-necked looking anchor woman, “You’re just so charming.

When you, when you play the devil, it makes a girl wanna go straight to hell.” 

Todd: Oh. And I

Craig: get it. You know, he often did play dark, sinister characters, but s- And he just had a seductive nature about him. And beyond that, if you … As you know, if you read his memoir, he was humble. So incredibly humble and grateful for all of the experiences that he had had. It… And, and he cautions early on in his memoir that he’s probably not going to spill the kind of salacious material you might be hoping for in a memoir.

You know, he doesn’t talk, I think at all, about his love life. 

Todd: No. 

Craig: And if ever there were scandalous things going on behind the scenes, like feuds or anything, he doesn’t really address that. I mean, he just seems really grateful for the experiences that he had, and to hear him talk about them from his own perspective is just, it’s fascinating, it’s entertaining and, and it’s just comforting hearing his voice because Career reflects, you know, his voice is one of his greatest tools.

One of many- Yeah … because I just think that he was an astounding, astounding actor. But Beyond that, just seemed like a really good guy. Was always generous with his fans. You know, we, we’ve dreaded this day. We’ve talked about it. We knew it was coming eventually and we had hoped that it would be a long time from now but we knew it was coming because he hasn’t been well for a long time.

I don’t remember when he had that stroke, but it’s been a long time ago. But even within the last year, even though he wasn’t well, he was still going to cons and, and festivals and, and holding panels and he spoke slowly and not as clearly as he once did, but he was all there mentally. You know? It, it had an effect– a physical effect on his body and slowed him down, but his mind was still sharp as a whip.

And I remember recently… The most recent one that I heard, he did a panel with Leslie Ann Warren, one of his co-stars from Clue, and you know, they were both there and I think that she anticipated having to do most of the heavy lifting, but ultimately she said that she could barely get a word in Because he talked so much and had, and so many stories and so many people had questions for him.

And he talks in his memoir about how he loved his fans because they were people who looked to characters like Frank N Furter and thought, you know, “If that person,” alien whatever it is, can be loudly who they are then I have permission to be loudly who I am.” And he really admired that in those people and wanted to give back to them too.

So I could go on and on and on. If you haven’t read the memoir and you’re a fan of Tim Curry’s, do yourself a favor. It, it’s certainly worth your time. Yeah. I mean y- I’m gonna … Uh, yeah, I, I shed a tear too. Hmm. It, it, it feels like a big loss. It real- And you know maybe this comes with being the age we are, but it really feels like we’re losing our heroes.

But Tim curry also felt, you know, multi generational and he kinda felt like he belonged to all of us. It, it feels like kind of a communal mourning. All of my friends were talking about it and were sad and, you know watching his movies with their kids in these last few days and – Yeah So obviously, his legacy will stand and You know, he was living comfortably.

He, he was sad that he couldn’t do the things that he could when he was physically able and he really enjoyed gardening but you know, he also was in a position where he could afford help and he had people who he… Had garden for him and he would sit in his chair- …and give them directions . Give some 

Todd: directions

Hmm 

Craig: He was– That was another thing that was so inspiring was, you know somebody who could have wallowed in their own, you know loss. He didn’t. He still felt like he had a lot of life to live and it was different now but he wasn’t gonna let that bring him down or at least that’s the way that he spoke about it and that was inspiring as well So just a great, great guy.

I’m sad that ,you know I, I, I’ve been saying for a while especially once I found out that you had never seen this movie, I’ve been saying for a while we’re gonna do this movie even if it’s when he passes We’re going to do it eventually. So I’m — I really am very excited to talk to you about it And I’m kinda glad that we got the sad stuff outta the way and now we can just celebrate At, at, at least You know?

I haven’t talked to you about how you feel about the movie yet. But at least I think we can agree in celebrating Tim Curry and his performance in it 

Todd: Yeah. I agree. You know talking about memoir real quick I, I was a little disappointed. I, I was very grateful for having something from him talking about his life but I did feel that is pretty surface and it was over awfully quick

I wanted a little more detail into him and his character but I just think that he’s more of private guy and he gave about as much as he willing to give and Like said for that I’m grateful If you’re on the fence about reading it and long books scare you Ill tell you that y- you wouldn’t have that problem so that’s, that’s good part of it i think 

Craig: Well and and not surprised to hear that because doesn’t speak much A- aside from his childhood and his relationship with parents.

He’s pretty open about that 

Todd: Hmm 

Craig: But yeah later on he talks friendships dear friendship s and and some acquaintances and it’s … You know? I’m always amazed by the six degrees of separation when it comes celebrity culture and how,- Mm …. sometimes they all kind of know each other and whose paths have crossed whatnot and that fascinating.

I’m interested in that kind of stuff and I’m interested in trivia and what he

does Is he runs through his career Or – Yeah …..or The biggest highlights of it basically gives you behind scenes perspective nd I found that be very interesting Rocky Horror for a very long time, ’cause that was a huge part of his life, which I didn’t know. I didn’t realize that he was playing that role for years and years and years- 

Todd: Hmm

Craig: and it was, you know, really defining for him as, as an actor. But he talks at length about Legend II, and I found that interesting. Ironically, I guess because it’s one of his most iconic roles, Pennywise, he barely talked about It at all. 

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: And he kind of , and he kind of said something about that like, “I know it’s one of my most iconic roles, I just don’t really have much to say about it.”

Todd: Like Yeah. He really did. And, and he was almost, I don’t wanna say disdainful about it. He wasn’t disdainful about it but there was a certain kind of like puzzlement or like a m-… I don’t want to say exhaustion- Yeah …but something that kinda came through where he was almost sounded like maybe he was a little done with being recognized for being Pennywise.

Craig: Well, he was so gracious, you know, in terms of his fans but I, I– He did kind of express suppr-… He was surprised that that was the one that… ‘Cause, you know, it’s an evil, terrible character and, um, he was surprised that so many people connected with It. But, but he was grateful- 

Todd: Yeah … 

Craig: and appreciative of the fans.

It was… Just didn’t have much to say about It . 

Todd: No, it was funny So interesting. Well we had a lot to say about It. You can go back and listen to one of our previous episodes on that and- 

Craig: Did we ever even do part two? I don’t remember. 

Todd: Yeah, we did part two but we didn’t do part two of the new It. Yeah. We did part two of the miniseries.

Yeah, so anyway Legend. You’re right, I had not seen this. I, I like that we’re talking about this in this way. I think this has happened once or twice where one of us has seen a movie since kind of grown up with it and the other one for some reason it just passed them by. And 

Craig: s- It’s very rare as of this point.

This- It’s 

Todd: weird, right? 

Craig: This could, this could be the last one. 

Todd: As, as surprisingly a film like Legend because it was in my face a lot. You know it was on TV a fair amount. Uh, I don’t even think I saw more than two seconds of a clip of it believe it or not. Y- you know I, I knew of the poster was always beckoning me from the shelves of the video store.

It actually looked like the kinda thing that my sisters and I would watch because this came out around the same time as The NeverEnding Story. Well also like Goonies and some other things but like there was a bit of a, of a fantasy resurgence in the mainstream movie world and- 

Craig: Uh-huh … 

Todd: so some big movies were going in this direction and- Jim Henson, yeah

j-… Yeah Jim Henson, uh, Labyrinth and whatnot. 

Craig: The Dark Crystal. 

Todd: Y- yeah The Dark Crystal too and I was really surprised to s- to hear that Jennifer… But not surprised really to hear that Jennifer Connelly was originally offered the lead female role in this. 

Craig: Uh-huh. 

Todd: She turned it down but ended up working on Labyrinth anyway.

I guess I just kind of intuitively knew over the years that the movie just didn’t really latch on except for people who grew up with it I think. Kinda like The NeverEnding Story I suppose. That’s not a movie you hear m- too many people talk about nowadays. 

Craig: Anymore, yeah. 

Todd: Yeah so, uh, unlike I dunno a lotta the other movies that came out around that time.

Labyrinth I think. 

Craig: Yeah. 

Todd: Labyrinth is probably more fondly reviv- But I think a lotta that has to do with this one had a bit of a troubled production Ridley Scott had just come off of Alien and stuff. And then he did another movie that wasn’t quite such a big hit 

Craig: Blade Runner 

Todd: And, uh, he wanted to go into another big production on something that’s fantasy related, some epic dark fantasy adventure for adults.

Reached out to an American novelist William Hjortsberg to write this original screenplay for it. And he did, and, and he put this thing into production. My God, the… Th- there was just massive, massive production behind this. It 

Craig: w- It’s 

Todd: crazy It’s insane. One of the- 

Craig: Yeah, it’s huge … 

Todd: one of the biggest sound stages at Pinewood Studios was made for this giant indoor set of a forest.

It did end up burning down midway through the production before they’d even finished all, shooting all their scenes in there. I mean, it was like- 

Craig: That was one of my favorite stories from Tim Curry’s memoir 

Todd: Yeah, right? 

Craig: Was when, was when the set burned down, and his mom saw it on, on the news, I think, and called him and was like, “Timmy, were you smoking?”

And like

And, and then, then there was some other point in his life where something burned down, and his mom called and asked him if he’d been smoking. I kinda thought that was such a funny story whether it’s 

Todd: true or not. That was funny. Seems like a thing- Seems like a thing that ran through his whole life was, uh, trying to keep his mom at bay with the smoking and the drugs and things.

Yeah. 

Craig: Like, “What did you do?” 

Todd: But, um, you know, he, he pulled in the same people who worked with him on Alien and Blade Runner. You know, all these big fantastical sets, and as I watched the movie I was just struck by how gorgeous everything was and how detailed it was. Couldn’t believe this was filmed indoors.

It just doesn’t have that… It has an otherworldly look to it- Mm … but it doesn’t have that otherworldly because I’m on a stage indoors look that say The Wizard of Oz has, you know? 

Craig: Right. 

Todd: So it’s just, it’s just gorgeous, and I mean, the whole production’s crazy. I sat down and I watched the director’s cut.

Wasn’t my o- my choice, it’s just what I had, so I, I watched it, and as I was finishing it up I thought, “I better contact you, Craig,” because the director’s cut came out in like 2003 or 2002. You definitely didn’t grow up watching the director’s cut, so I was curious what you were gonna watch. We decided that we would w- watch both of them so that we could compare.

Like I said earlier, to come full circle, I’m really glad that, uh, I’m in this position because not only am I seeing this movie for the first time, I’m not colored by my childhood memories of it. I’m also not colored by the theatrical version. 

Craig: Right. 

Todd: You know? I get to see them in the opposite order that a lot of people have grown up with it in and seen it in, so I might have a slightly different take on all this than you do.

We’ll see. 

Craig: Yeah, I can only imagine you will. Okay. So yeah, I grew up with it and I loved it. It was… I consider it in the same kind of ’80s children’s fantasy genre as those movies that we’ve already listed like Labyrinth and The Dark Crystal and The NeverEnding Story, that kind of thing. I, I can’t imagine probably that our listeners haven’t seen this movie, but you hadn’t, so I don’t know.

Todd: Right. 

Craig: But if you, if you haven’t, gosh, I, I don’t like movie spoilers. I, I know some– Our friend Heather l- likes movie spoilers. She likes to know what’s gonna happen before she sees a movie. 

Todd: Yes, so does, so does Vic. 

Craig: Yeah. I don’t, I don’t, I don’t understand that, but whatever. To each their own. I don’t like movie spoilers, so if you haven’t seen this, I would say watch it before you listen to this, and that’s my general advice.

But- Mm-hmm … so anyway, I grew up with the theatrical cut And didn’t know until it existed that there would be a director’s cut. And when I heard that there would be a director’s cut, that was the first time that I had learned… You know, I’m never surprised to hear that movies get edited, you know, in the process.

Of course, there’s stuff that gets left on the cutting room floor and so then later you get director’s cuts where they can put in whatever they want. So, you know, that’s nothing new. But this was the first time that I had learned that the score that I had grown up with was not the intended score, that they had done an entire symphonic and choral score that was now gonna be on this thing.

And I thought, oh, how cool is that? Because I love movie scores. So I ordered it. I think I pre-ordered it, which I don’t usually do. And it came and I put it in and I started watching it and I was like, “This is a different movie.” 

Todd: It really is. 

Craig: It, it’s a completely– The score makes such a difference. 

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: Now, this has been a long time ago.

It’s been a long time ago but it also, I hadn’t seen it in a really long time so I was excited to see it again and I’m like, “I’m so excited to s-see it again and I’m gonna see it the way it was intended.” And I put it on and I watched like the first 15 minutes And I turned it off and put, and, and put on the theatrical version.

You poor guy. And then I just went, and then I just went and watched all of the extended scenes and stuff on YouTube. So I really think that this is the first time that I’ve seen the director’s cut start to finish. Now, this is why it’s gonna be– I’m very interested too because this time I wanted to, you know, go in with an open mind direct- you know, director’s cut.

This is what the director wanted. And it’s good. Both movies are good. They’re both stunning to look at. I just feel like whoever… You know, they, they changed it. First of all, the original cut was like two and a half hours long. This, uh, director’s cut that we watched is right about two hours, and then the theatrical cut is right at about one thirty.

I think whoever made the decision to cut it and to rescore it was 100% right because I think that the theatrical cut drags, and I think that the way that it’s paced and the score, which is a beautiful– It’s an absolutely beautiful score in the director’s cut. It, you know, it’s, it’s orchestral. There’s, there’s choral stuff going on there.

It’s, it’s gorgeous, but it changes the tone entirely. To me, the director’s cut feels more like a classical almost British – 

Todd: Mm-hmm … 

Craig: fairy tale epic. 

Todd: Mm-hmm. 

Craig: Whereas the theatrical cut feels like an ’80s fever dream. 

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: And I like that more. And with the extended runtime, I think it with the tone because when you trim it down those scenes

Because there are comedic scenes throughout the movie, but in the director’s cut they’re kind of few and far between. And so- Right, they’re spaced out … when they h- whe- wh-when they happen it’s kind of jarring. Like why all of a sudden is this cute and funny now? Wh-when you condense it you don’t have so much space between those scenes and I just feel like it works better tonally.

Plus I just love the, the, the score um- … in the theatrical cut. Uh, it’s… Y-you’ll have to remind who did it. I should remember but I ca-… All 

Todd: I can come up with is Wagner. Tangerine Dream. Tangerine Dream- Tangerine Dream …. was the, you know, the sound of the ’80s. It’s a German band that, uh, scored a ton of ’80s movies and once you start hearing their scores you know what we’re talking about.

They’re th- they tend to be a little ethereal. They’re very synthy. 

Craig: Yes. 

Todd: The Keep, Risky Business. God Firestarter I think was scored by them. Legend obviously Near Dark had a nice score by them as well. I’m gonna kinda ride the middle here because I completely agree with what you’re saying to the extent of this is what makes the two movies different.

Jerry Goldsmith’s score works really well for what Ridley Scott, I think, ultimately wanted, which was a timeless classic. He wanted a dark epic fantasy tale th- that I think is like a little more adult oriented and I feel like that’s what he For 

Craig: sure. It’s, it’s scarier too. 

Todd: It’s so much- I think …scarier and, and a little more brutal and also the n-, the thing about the director’s cut is there are scenes and things left out tha-…

Of the theatrical cut that reduce the complexity of the characters. I would say that when you’re watching the director’s cut, you realize ev- almost every one of these characters is flawed in some way. 

Craig: Oh yeah. 

Todd: The princess comes off as a little more entitled and bitchy. 

Craig: For sure. 

Todd: Uh, Tom Cruise’s character comes off as a little like unsure and clueless and, and he’s got issues.

He, he’s also a little bit on more of a journey, I think, in the director’s cut because h- he’s not so good at stuff in the beginning and he has to try harder to … For example, he has to try harder to dispatch the witch whereas the theatrical cut, the witch scene is so short that it, it almost seems like it was second nature for her t-.

Him to just be able to cut her head off, you know? 

Craig: Correct me if I’m wrong ’cause I didn’t go back and double check but I felt like o- there was difference. Tom Cruise is the hero of the movie and he eventually kind of gathers a band of elves to help him. But if I remember correctly, in the direct- You know, in, in the theatrical cut, the elves just kind of find him and they learn that they need a hero and they’re like, “You’re good enough,” whatever.”

“You’re the 

Todd: guy,” Yeah. 

Craig: Y- And y- yeah, and then they just go off together. 

Todd: Mm-hmm. 

Craig: In the director’s cut They’re mad at him 

Todd: Oh yeah, they’re pissed. 

Craig: They’re pissed at him and they’re ultimately in the movie good guys but they’re also… In the director’s cut i- it’s very clear that they’re dangerous. Yeah. And in fact I think, I think Gump puts Jack to a test and I’m pretty sure that if Jack fails the test Gump is going to kill him.

Todd: Oh, yeah. 

Craig: And e- and then when, when Jack passes the test Gump is like furious that he didn’t get to kill him. 

Todd: Gump comes across as much angrier and testy as well in this, you’re right. And I think that’s what I liked about the director’s cut. I really liked that it w- didn’t simplify everything so much because I saw it first Right?

Craig: Right. 

Todd: S- so now I go and I watch the simpler version, it makes it seem more like a tale for children. Uh-huh. But I think it’s more appropriate for children. It’s less dark. It has darkness in it. Literally Darkness. Darkness is one of the characters played by Tim Curry. In fact, Darkness shows up pretty early on in the first movie.

He shows up early in the director’s cut as well but we don’t see his face and we have a very- You don’t see him, right … short scene with him whereas one of the things the studio said was, “We need to see him early.” And so we see him early on. And again, that’s a pretty typical thing to do for a kids movie.

You see the good guys, you see the bad guy, you see what the bad guy does and what needs to be fixed and then they go off on their adventure and then they pile on some friendly helpers to help them and then they go and dispatch the bad guy. Whereas the director’s cut isn’t quite as simplistic and it feels a little more adult.

And to me, I don’t know, it feels a little more timeless. I feel like maybe in another 20 years when the people like us who grew up in the ’80s are starting to fade away into obscurity . Hopefully it’s longer than 20 years. You know, and people are not remembering this movie from their childhood but they’re going back and watching it, I just have a prediction That people are gonna gravitate a little more towards the director’s cu- especially with what has come after.

You know, all these complex tales like Harry Potter and, uh, the long ass Lord of the Rings things. We have more of a tolerance and more of an expectation I think for a little more of this complexity in our fantasy. Whereas- 

Craig: Yeah, I don’t. 

Todd: Yeah. I know. I know. And, and but I’ll tell you, I freaking love the Tangerine Dream score in the simple other movie.

Isn’t 

Craig: it so good? 

Todd: It is. And, uh, i- it… But you’re right, it, it’s so crazy. This is a perfect example about how, how a score can completely change the tone of a film. It just makes it a lot more lighthearted and- 

Craig: And dreamy … 

Todd: dreamy. And, and that supports the visuals too. There are lots of times when the visuals are dreamy and stuff.

And also, you know, more ’80s. It 

Craig: definitely does. 

Todd: And we like the ’80s stuff. So, uh, there’s my bias showing there too. S-… But, but at the end of the day, I’m going to come down hard on the director’s side. I really just, I really do like the director’s cut a lot better, full stop. Although I will acknowledge 100% it’s a little slow.

It could have been trimmed a little bit. There were some moments where I was, I was a little bored. 

Craig: Yes. And, and, I mean, ugh, I’ll just come out and say I think if I were recommending it to somebody who hadn’t seen it before, unless I knew they were a real cinephile, i- if we’re just talking about somebody who wants a, a fun movie to watch, I would 100% say theatrical cut.

Yep. I, I think it’s more fun. I think the pacing’s better. 

Todd: I think that’s fair. I think we kind of said the same thing about the Clive Barker movie, right? 

Craig: I don’t remember which one it was. I feel- 

Todd: The one with the guys under the ground. Uh, we gotta, we gotta say the name. 

Craig: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, Nightbreed.

Nightbreed. 

Todd: The Night- Nightbreed, right? Uh, we kinda said the same thing, that the director’s cut in that case really was more for like diehard horror guys or Clive Barker fans, whereas the theatrical cut seemed to be a better choice. 

Craig: Right. 

Todd: Even though, like Legend, it, it bombed as well, so. 

Craig: Riiight. Yeah. And d- Well, I guess th- Yeah.

A- and, and you know, then if you’re i- a fan of the, the theatrical cut and you’ve seen it already and you’re curious, I mean, it’s, it’s definitely worth, you know, the… I, I find the theatr- or excuse me, the director’s cut certainly worth satisfying your curiosity. I mean, a- and, and again, I’ve said it before but I just want to reiterate, the score, the original score is gorgeous.

It, it really is stunning and appropriate. I don’t know, I just prefer the other, and it’s probably because I’m looking at it through th- the rose-tinted glasses of nostalgia. But, you know, and again, I, I imagine that if, if you’re listening to this, you’ve probably seen the movie. But if you haven’t, it is a fairy tale.

It’s a beautiful kind of epic fairy tale. The, the visuals are stunning with beautiful, uh, huge ethereal forests with towering tree trunks and, and bright sunlight coming through the, the foliage, you know, illuminating fields of flowers. And then you’ve got, you know, the, the dark sets as well. Like in the theatrical cut, it opens in kind of the dark forest, and you see the animals all running around and then this very scary goblin.

All of the characters except Tom Cruise who plays Jack, who he’s, I guess like a forest nymph? 

Todd: I guess. 

Craig: Which is what I would say. He’s not mortal, I don’t believe. I think Mia Sara is the only mortal or human. Maybe mortal’s not the right word. Human. He’s, he’s not human. He’s something else. And, and Mia Sara is a human princess from a kingdom that we never see, but she likes to hang out in the forest and amongst the normal people.

But the, the origin- the … Excuse me. The director’s cut opens up with this very scary voice which is Tim Curry’s voice altered a little bit, and I think brought down. It sounds to me, if he was doing it by himself I, I don’t know how he did it ’cause it, he brings it really low in the register. 

Todd: No, they did, they did modify it.

He mentioned that in his, uh, in his biography. But he fought to have it not modified so much. 

Craig: That’s … Yeah. He y- he also didn’t wanna wear as many prosthetics as he had to, but, uh, ultimately I think was really pleased with the way that it turned out. 

Clip: I am the lord of darkness. I require the solace of the shadows and the dark

of the night Sunshine is my destroyer

All this shall change. Tonight, the sun sets forever

There shall never be another dawn 

Craig: Um, then he meets with his goblin minion Blix and says, “You gotta go hunt the unicorns because the unicorns make the sun rise, and I wanna rule the world.” 

Todd: Yep. 

Craig: The theatrical cut opens with a scroll- Ugh … a text scroll. 

Todd: So yucky. 

Craig: I kinda like it. I don’t know. Of course you do.

Uh, it, it … I know. But it kind of … Like, it gives you… Again, it, it makes more sense for children even though I don’t know that young children necessarily could read the whole thing, but it just kind of establishes the story. Like, it tells you, we are in a time when – … I didn’t write it all down, but th- there’s powers of light and powers of darkness, and the powers of light are i- embodied in the unicorns, and there’s a boy in the woods named Jack, and he’s a protector of the unicorns.

Like, it … So it kind of- … sets up the whole thing for you before throwing you right in. But, uh, the way that Blix is going to find the unicorns is because they can be baited by innocents. So I guess Alan, as we were watching it said, “Um, how did the Goblin know to follow around Jack and Lily?” And I said, “I don’t know.

They’re innocent. He figured it 

Todd: out” Questionable. 

Craig: But, uh, yeah, I don’t know. That’s it. I don’t know how … I took s- like copious notes, and I don’t know how much we need to get into the plot. But Jack shows Lily the unicorns, which he’s not supposed to do because I guess it’s, like, against the rules of magic in the forest, and she, against his protest, goes up and touches one of the unicorns.

And while she’s doing that, the unicorn is distracted, so the goblin Blix is able to shoot it with a poison dart and eventually cut off its horn which at least temporarily throws the whole country into a dark winter. 

Todd: Now, there’s still another unicorn, right? I mean, he doesn’t cut off both. Didn’t one get away?

Craig: One does get 

Todd: away. I was very confused by this. 

Craig: Yeah, he only gets one, and that becomes an issue becau- I don’t know. I mean, people who have complaints about the movie say that, you know, the story has holes, and it does, you know? I, I guess, you know, it’s fantasy so whatever the writer wants to happen can happen.

But I, I, I guess when this unicorn is killed, ’cause I, I think that taking its horn kills it, we see its motionless body covered in snow later so I, I, I think it’s supposed to be dead. Yeah. I don’t know. I … That caused enough of a disturbance to make it go into a dark winter’s night, but later Darkness appears to the goblins and says, “Did you kill both of the unicorns?”

And at first they say yes, and he’s like, “Well, that’s bullshit because the sun’s coming up,” and they’re like, “Oh yeah, there’s still another one”. And he makes them go get the other one. So- 

Todd: Yeah … 

Craig: I, I think that If you want to try to explain it away, they thought as long as he had a unicorn horn, because it is magic, like the goblin starts using it like a magic wand and like shooting fire out of it and causing- Yeah

humorous ruckus, um, with the other goblins. I guess they just thought that was enough, but it wasn’t. He has to have both And eventually they, you know, they, they get the other unicorn and Princess Lily in the process. And so then Jack is on double duty, not… You know, I think most importantly what Gump and the other fairies and, and dwarves and elves are concerned about is the unicorn, but Jack is also trying to save his princess.

It’s, it’s all, you know, it’s all very kind of typical fairy tale. 

Todd: It really is. 

Craig: And that’s how it plays out, but it’s beautiful to look at. The elves and dwarfs or whatnot are the comic part, and one of them is played by Billy Barty. I think his brother, there are two that are brothers, I can’t- Brown Tom and Screwball And I think that the guy who plays Brown Tom is a, a famous little person actor.

There’s lots of little people actors in here. And they’re kind of the comic relief, and that does k- kind of, especially in the theatrical cut, ground it as a kids movie. 

Todd: Right. 

Craig: But beyond that, beyond that, I just kept saying to Alan, “My God, they just do not make movies like this anymore for kids.” They just don’t.

Todd: No, they don’t. T- they lighten it up a lot more now. Yeah. They try to kind of make you know that everything’s still gonna be okay all throughout. 

Craig: Yeah. We, we are not beholden to any rules about what movies we pick, but I have said since we started talking about this, I think that this is a horror movie. I mean, there are so many moments where you could pause the frame and you could just not…

Anybody who looked at it would say, “Oh, this has to be out of a horror movie,” because there are horrifying elements of it. 

Todd: There really are. I was watching it and I was thinking, “Oh, I’m going to show this to Kenji sometime.” And then I’m … After, after I finish it, well, and I finished the director’s cut, I was like, “Eh, I don’t think he’d like this.”

He’s a little scared- It’s scary … of things. And, and I try to push him to, you know, y- you got to confront life, and fiction is sort- somehow is, is how we do it, and we don’t necessarily want to avoid scary things all our lives or we can’t deal with things. So I’m not overly protective of what he sees. But I was just watching this and I thought, yeah, there’s a lot of stuff in this that…

There’s, um… I think it’s, it’s early in the theatrical cut, but much later in the director’s cut when they’re actually showing the Lair of Darkness. That’s a freaking scary place. 

Craig: Heck yeah. 

Todd: There are giants in there that are chopping people up alive. 

Craig: I know, and cooking, barbecuing them. 

Todd: Oh my god. Oh my god.

And they’re, they’re showing it. I mean, it’s, it’s shocking. 

Craig: People are getting pulled away screaming and, like, seemingly thrown into the fire. But something else that I noticed, having watched it twice in one day Is the good guys might seemingly be hurt or killed, but they never are. The good guys never get hurt or killed in the movie.

Right. It, Brown Tom seemingly gets shot in the head to the point that it looks like blood flows down his face, but it turns out it’s just his wine that he kept under his cap One of the other elves or whatever they are who was posing as a goblin, but we find out later he wasn’t really a goblin, he was one of the elves.

He gets pulled out of the dungeon and carried away by one of those giant gross orc-like guys, and he’s screaming and screaming and screaming, and then it seems like he gets cut up and cooked. But then later we find out he’s not dead because they pull him out, like he’s been put into a pie, but the pie hasn’t been baked yet-

and they pull him out. 

Todd: It’s such a, such a fairy tale thing. I thought that was really cute. 

Craig: Yeah. It, it, it pulls its punches a little bit. 

Todd: Did you recognize him, by the way? 

Craig: I did recognize him, but I didn’t … Was he from Gothic? 

Todd: Yeah, he was the guy in Gothic. 

Craig: Yeah. 

Todd: Mm-hmm. He’s been in a bunch of other stuff too, but he was very featured in that one.

Yeah, so crazy. So yeah, it’s spooky, it’s scary. And 

Craig: then of course Tim Curry is terrifying. 

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: That’s the one thing that I will give the theatrical cut great credit for. I do think that it was the right decision to keep his identity in shadow until much later. 

Todd: So you mean the director’s cut is what you’re 

Craig: saying?

Yeah, yes. Excuse me. That, yeah, the director’s cut. I, I like the theatrical cut where you see him, I mean, not really in his f- 

Todd: He looks different. 

Craig: Yeah. I mean, he’s kind of lit in green a little bit. Y- you don’t see him in his- He’s got glowing green eyes, dark. Interestingly, so Tim Curry had to go through hours of, of m- makeup and, and he was wearing like 18-inch iron framed lifts in his shoes, and then those horns which initially were really heavy, but it was causing really great strain on his neck, so they e- eventually made them with fiberglass and said that it was almost surreal how you would pick them up to move them, how light they were.

Like, because they were so large, but they had almost no heft to them. So Tim Curry, who’s like a 5’9″, 5’10” guy, like my height, so very average in height, ultimately, you know, from tip of horn to bottom of hoof was almost 13 feet tall. And he’s in, he’s in full body prosthetics and full face prosthetics including, you know, crazy contacts that, that covered his eyes that he ab- initially objected to and were very painful, but ultimately he thought they looked good.

The, the process of getting into the makeup was one thing, but then it also took, I think, at least an hour if not more of soaking in a bath so that all of the adhesive could be, you know, softened enough to be taken off safely. At one point he had a panic attack In that process and became so impatient that he just started ripping the, the makeup and the prosthetics off.

And in the process ripped off a lot of his own skin. So much so that they had to… I th- I don’t remember if they halted production or if, or if Ridley Scott just gave him time off 

Todd: Yeah, he gave him time off. They were able to shoot some other things while he waited but yeah, he was in the hospital and he had some time off after that 

Craig: But I guess ultimately that influenced his decision because he had to find ways to shoot around him and kind of keep him in shadow or not seen.

That influenced his decision to want to keep him, you know, kind of concealed until the end. But ultimately like you said, the, the, the f- the company or the production or whatever wanted to see him earlier so we ultimately did see him earlier than the theatrical one. But he’s horrifying too. I, I think- Mm-hmm …you know, one of the great

He’s never called Satan, he’s never called the devil but I mean, that’s obviously what it is in this fantasy world and I think one of the greatest cinematic depictions of the Devil in stop 

Todd: Yeah 

Craig: He looks amazing. And the other thing that’s amazing about it to me is that he is still able to act through all of that and I was just blown away 

Todd: It’s incredible.

A- you wouldn’t recognize him but if you’re familiar with Tim Curry there’s a l-… You can recognize him but i- eh, not really. I mean, you know, hi- his mouth, he’s always had a very I would say expressive mouth 

Craig: Yes! God 

Todd: And that’s their… Rob Bottin did the makeup for this. He had just come off of uh, The Howling and stuff.

We talked about extensively about him when we did our episode on The Howling and just how great that makeup is. He, you know, he did a really good job of putting appliances on his face instead of like more or less a big rubber mask- 

Right …

so that his m- face would move and we’re in his face a lot 

Mm-hmm And 

he…

You can’t tell that’s makeup. It really does look like a creature, a d- the Devil. Uh, uh, the everything on that face moves like skin would move. It’s fantastic 

Craig: Same with his body. I mean, you don’t see his full torso very often but when you do it looks real . Like it looks like a real buff- Muscular …you know huge, huge dude.

And Mia Sara This was, I think her first big screen role or maybe big screen starring role. I, I knew her first, I think from Ferris Bueller’s Day Off which was also heavy in our r- Mm … rotation when we were kids. 

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: And she’s gorgeous. She’s gorgeous. She was absolutely gorgeous in Ferris Bueller. She’s gorgeous in this.

I think she’s perfect for this princess role. 

Todd: Yeah, she’s great in it. 

Craig: I think she’s fantastic. In the director’s cut she sings

a lot Hmm. 

Todd: You weren’t, you weren’t a fan huh? 

Craig: It’s not that she doesn’t do a good job. It was fine. I just found that to be a completely like “We just don’t need that.” Like.She says- 

Todd: Sort of like Cheer Up Charlie and Willy Wonka & the Chocolate Factory. It’s like slows the movie down. We don’t need 

Craig: a little song.

Uh yeah well I actually I love that but no. I mean sh- I think she says to Tom Cruise more than once like, “Shall I sing for you?” And every time I was like nah. I- I’ve heard it.

Todd: Oh God. 

Craig: But I do love her and she’s great in this. And I think that you see it a little bit in the theatrical cut but it is more in the other that she is certainly flawed. She’s selfish and y- you know like she just- Selfish princess. Yeah She … She is very much a princess and, and she does what she wants and she doesn’t think about consequence and this really kind of all her fault.

Um- Mm-hmm To, to, to her credit when she finds out because she overhears the goblins talking about it after the place has fallen into winter. She overhears them and, and f- finds out that it was her fault because she wasn’t supposed touch the unicorn then she vows to make it right. And ultimately though she is almost successfully seduced by darkness She does.

She comes around, she helps out. 

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: But then the ending, which we do not need to jump to, th- that’s another difference between the theatrical cut and the director’s cut is the ending is very different. 

Todd: Hmm. 

Craig: Like, it… Ulti-… Like, it doesn’t look that different, but the implications are drastically different.

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: That we’ll, we’ll get there. What else did you wanna talk about? I mean- 

Todd: I wanna talk about on their journey, there’s that witch, Meg Mucklebones. 

Craig: Yeah. 

Todd: Oh my God. 

Craig: That’s the part that I remember being the most scary from when I was a kid, and returning to it as an adult, I forgot that it is a tiny little part of the movie.

Todd: It’s so tiny, but it is scary as hell. I was scared. Yeah. She looks straight outta The Evil Dead almost, really. She’s got… Oh, well, Tom Cruise’s character, what’s his name again? I can’t remember. Jack. Jack. Of course, it’s Jack. What am I saying? It’s a fairy tale. Jack ends up in the swamp, and he’s got a armor that the little fairy gave him, shield, and the sword and all that.

And he’s going through the swamp, and he stumbles onto this spot where this big witch hag rears up out of the muck. And my God, she is… Got this long green nose. Her makeup is scary as heck. Hunched 

Craig: back. She’s all slimy and ugh. 

Todd: Awful eyes. D- sc- really scary eye-. 

Craig: And it’s kind of almost hard to tell what she is.

First of all, she just pops up out of, like, she was under the water. She seems huge. 

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: Now, Tom Cruise, Tom Cruise on his own is a small person, and he spends most of this movie in a crouch. So, so he’s, he’s small, but she just towers over him, and I can’t… You kind of never see the bottom of her body. I don’t even know what she is.

No. I don’t know if she’s some kinda, like, serpent or- 

Todd: Well, I guess …’

Craig: cause you never s- you never see legs. I dunno. And the way she pops up is really scary. I didn’t read or see anything about how it was done, but oh boy, it looked good. 

Todd: I saw some behind the scenes stuff of appliances and stuff. It’s pr- it’s pretty good.

It’s great makeup. It’s really, really scary. She’s practically on top of him. He’s just h- whole… There’s just a shield between them. I really like how this goes down in the director’s cut ‘Cause this is a moment, and this is a moment that really tests Jack. He’s scared. He’s got her shield there. He’s really trying, and he gets the idea that he’s going to distract her by calling her beautiful, which she kinda only is half buying.

Clip: What a fine fat boy you are, Jack. You 

don’t really mean to eat me, do you, ma’am? 

Oh, indeed I do.

But that would be a shame because someone as fair and lovely as yourself, Miss Meg, deserves far better than scrawny me Don’t you think? 

Yeah. Think we fair, do you, Jack? 

All the heavenly angels must envy your beauty. 

Todd: But she keeps kinda looking in his shield and… I liked all this, and I felt like it deserved a long scene like this- Mm

and it says a little something about Jack’s character. You know, he’s still fumbling through this. He still d- isn’t really the hero that he needs to be. But that doesn’t u-… It doesn’t end up working, and eventually she kind of lunges at him but he managed to have grabbed his sword, and he swings it around and lops her head off.

Whereas in the theatrical cut, this is all quite quick. She kinda comes out, she’s kinda on top of him, and there isn’t much of this back and forth. Eh, he just kinda swings his sword around and cuts her head off. And I thought that was kind of unfortunate. 

Craig: Yeah. I mean, ’cause it is. It’s a, it it’s a scary character and she’s not…

It, it seems like she would deserve more time. H- 

Todd: honestly, what I … ‘Cause I… You know, when I went to watch the theatrical cut, I was trying to predict in my head what they cut out, and I was like, “Well, they sure as hell cut out that whole scene.” 

Craig: Y- 

Todd: I was like, “That was too scary to put in the final movie. Uh, it didn’t appeal to kids.”

I was surprised it was still in, which just goes to show, like you said, they don’t make them like that anymore. 

Craig: They certainly don’t. And I was also surprised, and I only learned this yesterday in preparing for th- for this, that, that that character is played by Robert Picardo, who I recognize and who I know has been in a million things.

And I started to scan through his IMDb, but it was so long that I gave up even before I got back to the ’80s. But what I remember him from is Innerspace. He was the cowboy in Innerspace. And- 

Todd: Oh, no kidding. 

Craig: Yes. And, and the fact that he’s Meg Mucklebones in this, I was also…. I don’t know why. I, I always thought that Tim Curry, Darkness’s main goblin minion, is named Blix.

And I find him very scary, too. 

Todd: Oh, yeah. 

Craig: And, and he only speaks in rhymes. Gosh, I wrote some of them down, like, “Mortal world be turned to ice. Here be Goblin Paradise”. And, and he has this really scary voice. But I, I always thought of the character as male, and found out that it’s played by a female, an, an actress, Alice Playten, who, who also voices Gump.

Wait, is that right? She voices somebody else. I think may- I don’t remember who it is. I, I read about it and I forgot. I think it’s Gump. David Bennett played Gump, but, uh, his voice was dubbed, and I think it was her. She did two voices, that’s all I know. But all of the prosthetics, all of the goblins, it all looks good.

It is reminiscent of parts of it, especially the little goblins, like Blix and his two little counterparts Very reminiscent of Labyrinth, but somehow Labyrinth is so much, it w- and don’t get me wrong, I love that movie as much, but it’s so much lighter. You know, there are fun songs and stuff. Aside from a few comic scenes with the goblins and, and the elves or whatever they are.

This movie’s pretty darn serious and, and gets really dark. Like another big part that w- that I remember so strongly from when I was young is the seduction scene. And I think both Tim Curry and Mia Sara are great in it but it starts, you know, before Tim Curry even reveals himself, Mia Sara is alone in this huge- God, it’s massive

it’s, you know, it’s, it’s darkness’ lair that you’ve u-… Yeah. And there are giant furnaces everywhere and giant pillars and before she even gets there she’s running through enormous … You know, I don’t know how much of that was done with set pieces. I think a lot of it was and I’m sure that then there’s a lot of, you know, I don’t know if it’s matte stuff or, or how they put all that together.

But it’s epic in its visual scope. 

Todd: No, this is the kinda thing that you appreciate now because, you know, most of this would all be done on a green screen- 

Craig: Uh-huh … 

Todd: now and this is all practical. By the way, I think uh, their glitter budget alone- … had to have been several million . Their everything is covered in glitter e-d-, oh even Tom Cruise is fricking covered in glitter 

Craig: Tom Cruise is so very glittery.

And I, I haven’t said anything about it yet and I wanna come back to Lili’s dance but I am not a big Tom Cruise fan but I was back in the ’80s. Like I really have just been so off-put by him as a person with- 

Todd: Yeah … 

Craig: the whole Scientology thing and he just seems very shady and, and I dunno. 

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: But he’s weird and it just kind of, I, I can’t look at him the same way.

That said, in this I think it’s great. You know, he’s Tom Cruise before he was Tom Cruise. Mm-hmm. Um, and he’s still got that kind of wet behind the ears thing going on that I think makes him good in this movie. 

Todd: Yeah, I’d say so. I mean, he did have Risky Business out before this but you’re right. And it’s not his favorite performance either.

In fact, I’m pretty sure he doesn’t like it at all. 

Craig: No. He’s not a big fan. But I actually, if I’m, if I’m ever going to say anything nice about Tom Cruise, I actually kinda like him in this movie . Not that he’s amazing but like I, I really di- He 

Todd: plays the part well. The, the part asks for this- 

Craig: Yeah. A innocent, naive- Yeah 

Todd: exactly 

Craig: Like you said before, he kinda goes through a journey where he’s not the typical hero.

He’s not just great at everything. He kind of stumbles through and makes his way. And, and To- and he’s young and small and he hasn’t had his teeth fixed yet and so he looks, you know- A woodlands creature. His, he, he was going through a phase in his life where he was growing his hair out- … so, uh, it’s, he didn’t have to wear a stupid wig.

It works. But what did you think? ‘Cause I, I told you before I knew that you were gonna watch them both, I knew that you had just watched the theatrical cut, and eventually I said, “You gotta at least watch the first 10 or 15 minutes of, of the theatrical cut to get a feel for it.” But I also recommended that you watch this dance scene.

And this, I don’t know, this, this scene stood out to me so much. Like, it, it, it feels iconic to me. I don’t know if that’s… What were your thoughts about it? 

Todd: I wondered where the dance was going, you know This is in the big dining hall where she’s still alone and hasn’t met Darkness yet, but, uh, he’s got, I don’t know, like a minion or a shadow or something like that who has come to dance with her.

And it’s… If I’m not mistaken, the dancing was a little bit longer in the director’s cut, wasn’t it? 

Craig: I think so. 

Todd: I liked it. I- I 

Craig: think so. It’s, it’s, it’s fairly long in both 

Todd: While I was watching it in the director’s cut, I thought, “This is nice. This is really clever.” And then by the time they’re done dancing, you know, she’s drawn into it and she’s enthusiastic about him.

The seduction is complete and now she is this shadow. She is now in that same dress and that, y- she’d just become what she was dancing with. I, I loved that part of it. 

Craig: The gown is so great. Like, it, it, it- The gown is fantastic … like a Cher/Bob Mackie kind of look. Yeah. 

Todd: Like, 

Craig: I, I, I have no idea how old Mia Sara was when she made this, but she had to have been very young.

Mm. But i- she looks gorgeous, and this gown has a slit down the front that goes down I think, like, to or past her navel. Yeah. And she’s in this big headpiece, and it’s all black and lace, and kind of like Kiss of the Spider Woman kind of- Yeah, yeah … thing. And, and, and she, you know- Glitter … she’s got black lipstick and- Yeah.

All, all the glitter and black lipstick and black eyeliner and… It, it… Al- When we were watching it, this is one of Alan’s favorite parts too, and he said that, you know, he kind of … He, he loves the, like, the duality of it. Yes. It was kind of like her shadow self- Yeah … and she was embracing her shadow self and- 

Todd: Like coming over to the dark side in a way.

It’s, it’s really good. 

Craig: Yeah. 

Todd: Between the two scenes though, I really like the director’s cut better. I, I felt that the Tangerine Dream score was a little like, “La la la la la la fairy tale”. Oh, 

Craig: I liked it. 

Todd: And the other one felt just a little more, like, deeper and apropos to what was happening for me. 

Craig: Fair.

Totally fair. 

Todd: But yeah, it was great. Great sequence, great notion, great idea, and then finally she turns and she, she faces this mirror, and this hand comes through and this hoof comes through, and that is Darkness’s big entrance, at least in the director’s cut. So first time we see him, his face. 

Craig: And again, I, I think that this is better.

Like, you get the same scene, you get the same reveal in both versions, but it has more impact in the director’s cut because you haven’t seen him before. Yeah. It kind of, in the theatrical cut, it’s not as much as a reveal because aside from the fact that he’s, you know, bright red, we’ve kind of only seen him in shadow before.

Now we see him in full light. We’ve seen him before, so it’s, it’s not that big a deal. But it’s, it’s great either way, him coming through, stepping, his giant hoof coming through the mirror and then his horns preceding him by like three feet. It’s, it’s amazing. It’s a great reveal, and she’s horrified. And then they, I, you know, I think, I’m sure a lot of this is editing and direction and, uh, everything, but they have some great interplay 

Clip: Two.

Eat. 

I’m not hungry. 

You lie.

Just to please me. 

I do nothing for your pleasure.

All I wish is for you to sit and talk with me. 

Sit? 

Here? Yes

Craig: Please I prefer to stand. Silence! It cuts, it cuts back and forth here at the end a lot between them alone and then Jack and company sneaking in and, and figuring out a plan and setting up the plant. It keeps cutting back and forth between that. But the stuff between Tim Curry and Mia Sara is great.

Really is. He’s doing his best to be charming and to control his temper. She’s initially very frightened but then ultimately kind of becomes defiant and is I think, you know intentionally trying to goad him and push his temper, and he loses his temper at places and then composes himself. And when he composes himself like you said there are so many y- you know closeups on his face I don’t know how that man does with his lips what he does.

Todd: I know, right? 

Craig: And, and I was telling Alan last night, I was like, “I don’t know if it’s intentional,” like, uh, he is, is so in control of the articulation of his mouth that it’s intentional or if that’s just the way he talks. But it’s… I don’t know how to describe it. I’ve never seen anything like it. Me neither.

I’ve never been– I’ve never seen… He does the same thing with Pennywise. Yep. There’s so much mouth work going on. 

Todd: Pennywise, uh, Frank-N-Furter. 

Craig: And he’s got these huge teeth. 

Todd: Mm. 

Craig: And somehow he still manages to do all of that with his mouth around it. It’s crazy, and, and he’s so, you know, he’s, he’s at, at the same time charming and, and he’s tempting her with, with material things and jewels and, and power and all of this stuff, and i- he’s scary as hell, but he’s also hot.

Like- 

Todd: Yeah … 

Craig: Man, he wouldn’t have to try too hard to convince 

Todd: me.

Craig: And she’s great. She, she plays very well against him. Hmm. But ultimately, the good guys set a trap. Tom Cruise remembers Lily’s sparkly necklace from the beginning and that, and, and Darkness has said more than once that sunlight is his destroyer. So they set up a, a whole thing of reflective plates that they stole from The Murder Kitchen.

Todd: The Murder Kitchen- Yeah … yeah. 

Craig: And, and, and there’s, there’s a great scene. Lily’s final bargaining chip, she says, “Fine, I’ll be your bride on one condition: You let me kill the unicorn.” And it looks at this point like she’s really embracing The Darkness, and Darkness, like, gives this whole big speech like, I don’t know, they’re on some big, like, platform and i- it’s epic.

It’s, like, shot from really far away, and he’s got his hands in the air, and he’s going on this big thing about darkness taking over the world, and she’s raising the sword above the unicorn’s head. And- Yeah … um, Jack, Jack and Gump are kind of off, you know, hidden in the shadows, and Gump is telling Jack that he’s gonna have to kill Lily.

But Jack trusts her, and in the end she doesn’t kill the unicorn, and s- when she brings the sword down, instead of cutting off the unicorn’s horn, she cuts its chains and sets it free. 

Todd: Mm-hmm. 

Craig: Oh, and it’s all huge, and then there’s a big fight scene between little tiny Jack and great big giant- 

Todd: Yeah 

Craig: Darkness and- Very 

Todd: violent, you know.

He’s throwing him around 

Craig: Oh my God, and it… Throwing him around, and at one point, you know, he charges at him, runs at him, and then pins him up against a wall between his horns so they’re kind of face to face and- Yeah. So good … it’s all very exciting. Mm-hmm. And, and then it culminates… Oh, so they, they get the…

Despite some silly antics with one of the elves falling asleep on the job, Oona, the fairy helps them get the reflectors set up and they do, and the light comes in and bursts through the door and hits Darkness and, and like pushes him, I don’t know, back through some portal or something and- 

Todd: Yeah …. 

Craig: he’s cry- he’s crying out to his father for help but eventually the light pushes him out into space.

And he, like explodes. 

Todd: Yep. Yep. 

Craig: And I, saying it out loud, I think it sounds kind of corny, but really in the movie I think it is great. I love it. 

Todd: It’s a very, um, it’s not like a giant explosion, it’s just like, like three little pieces that kinda flew away. There was a part of me that wondered if- Yeah … that wasn’t supposed to be like stars in a constellation that was forming now?

You know? That would be a very fairytale type thing. 

Craig: Maybe. Maybe. Maybe. I dunno. 

Todd: But uh, yeah. Then they go back and they, they wake up the unicorn, the dead unicorn by sticking his horn back on. At least they do that in- 

Craig: Right … 

Todd: in the theatrical version. I think they kinda skip it. They 

Craig: do in both. 

Todd: Do they? 

Craig: Well, eh, I think in the…

They do, but in the director’s cut I think it, it’s a little bit slower and I think Gump kind of explains it. Like, because Lily is under a spell. She’s unconscious and she’s under a spell. And Gump tells Jack, “You are the only one that can break the spell. You know how to do it.” Mm-hmm. And he remembers that early in the movie she had taken off her ring and thrown it in the river or something and said, “Whoever finds this ring I shall marry”.

So he has to go find the ring. Meanwhile, his elf friends, they take care of the unicorn. They go and put it on. I do think, you do see the horn being reattached in both versions, but I don’t know if it’s explained in the theatrical version. And when the horn is reattached, you know, the winter goes away and And then he, you know, he finds the ring and he takes it to her.

And but here’s where the endings diverge- Yeah … and I think it’s such an int- it, it’s so interesting. Like, the theatrical cut has a typical fairy tale ending where Jack and Lily kind of kiss and, you know, they, she wakes up, he puts the ring on her finger and kisses her, and she wakes up and they’re in love, and they walk off into the sunset together, and they literally turn around as they’re walking off into the sunset and wave goodbye to all-

of their friends. Yes, very typical. And the unicorn. It’s like the end of Scrooged where, like, all of the people come back and, like, wave goodbye- Mm-hmm … and the unicorn and Gump and all the other elves all, you know, are there, and they wave goodbye to them, and then they go off into the sunset. And then in the theatrical cut, it does do this weird thing where it kind of shows Darkness’ face laughing again before it goes to the credits.

Todd: Right. Sequel time. 

Craig: Yeah. In the director’s version, he gets the ring, puts it on her finger, kisses her, she wakes up, and she’s like, “What happened? It feels like it was all a dream.” And then she says, “But I did learn a couple things” “You’re my prince, but you belong here. Bye,” 

Todd: Yep.

Craig: And then she leaves and goes home. 

Todd: Bitchy princess. 

Craig: And then- 

Todd: She

Craig: leaves and goes home, and she’s like, “I’ll come see you again later”- Uh-huh … and he’s like, “Okay.” And then he walks off or runs off into the sunset by himself. 

Todd: It’s an interesting- 

Craig: Which is so weird 

Todd: The European theatrical version was similar to the director’s cut in many ways, but still shortened, and, uh, that one also had the original score by Jerry Goldsmith, and it also ends pretty much like the American version.

The only change is that Dark- Darkness isn’t laughing at the end. Gotcha. So it’s pretty interesting that he went with this This other one that I guess he originally intended much, much later. I can’t imagine it would have been a huge crowd pleaser at the time- No … but you know, it, I think it fits with the more complicated fairy tale that he’s telling and I don’t know if- 

Craig: And it was fine

it’s fine. You know, it didn’t even s-… It didn’t even suggest… It didn’t suggest that they wouldn’t ultimately end up together. Yeah, sure. You know? Like she, she, she was going to come back. 

Todd: She gives him a ring and says treasure it and asks if she can come back. Yeah. So you know, yeah. 

Craig: But you know, it’s not the traditional, “you know, they end up together” ending that we get in the theatrical version which I don’t know.

I, ultimately that I don’t care. I do think that they’re vastly different and ended on a, a, a different note. I mean, it’s not like you feel bad for Jack at the end of the theatrical version. He’s still happy. He’s running off into the forest. Like, that’s his place and that’s what he does and he’s better for all of this.

It’s not like, oh sad, he didn’t get the girl. Everything’s fine. Yeah. It’s still a happy ending. It’s just, uh, different. 

Todd: Well, I think Ridley Scott’s a little allergic to endings that are pat and trite. Even though he was making a fairytale, you know, he had to go outside the box a little bit to make things a little less- 

Craig: Fair

Todd: little less trite and pat, but what a nice movie. I’m glad I watched it and I’m with ya. Uh, like I said, I thought theatrical version was a little long, but ultimately I preferred it. I preferred the score too, but I tell ya, if I’m in the mood for ’80s, I would totally jump to the theatrical version 100%.

Craig: Well, like you said, didn’t you say isn’t there like a European director’s cut that’s somewhere in between? It- A little bit … it’s not as long as- 

Todd: Yeah, it is but it still has the Jerry Goldsmith score, not the, uh, not the Tangerine Dream one so- 

Craig: Right. Right … 

Todd: it’s not gonna scratch your ’80s itch as much. 

Craig: I think it, both versions are good movies, but like you said, it’s….

This really is a testament to what a huge, huge difference a score makes. 

Todd: Mm. 

Craig: And I think you could say the same thing about, you know, like studio tampering or, you know, studios doing the things that they do, the difference between the studio vision and, and the director’s vision. It’s, it’s, it’s a, a shining example of that too, but really it’s, it’s the difference in score I think in this one that makes such a huge difference.

But I would, I would recommend either again if you haven’t ever seen it before and you’re just curious Especially, you know, I think a lot of our listeners, if not most, are around our age. So I’m guessing probably many of you grew up with it at least to some extent. And if you still have that nostalgia for the ’80s like we do, my recommendation would be the theatrical cut.

Yeah. But if you’re already a fan and you’ve seen the theatrical cut and you’re a big fan and you’re curious, I def- I definitely think the other one is, is worth checking out. And either way, you’re gonna get a good movie, and you’re gonna get a, a great iconic performance from Tim Curry. Classic curry. And I think you should watch all of Tim Curry’s- Yeah

Todd: you 

Craig: should watch all of Tim Curry’s movies because he’s great in all of them. He really is. He was just a really, really gifted guy, a unique actor. You know, his, he, his voice acting, like we said, was, was prolific, and he was so good at it. He had an amazing voice, but he just … You know, his voice was an amazing instrument, but his face was an amazing instrument.

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: You and I talked once. He did an episode of Tales From The Crypt that we talked about, and then- … we ended up not posting it for reasons. H- he played, like, three different characters in that episode of Tales From The Crypt. And behind prosthetics, you know, it was just really cool to see him playing multiple characters in the same scene.

So you should check that out too. But check out everything he’s done. He’s amazing. Read his book, and strive to be like him. Yes. Be who you are. Do the things that you love, and do them the best you can, and enjoy it, and be good to the people around you, and let that, you know, let your kindness and, and your gifts be your legacy.

That’s, that’s the lesson I take from him. 

Todd: Thank you for everything, Tim Curry, that you’ve given us. And, uh, the world was a little bit of a better place when we knew you were in it, but, uh, you certainly left behind a lot for us to treasure. Well, this is another episode of Two Guys and a Chainsaw. If you enjoyed it, please share it with a friend.

You can chat about Tim Curry as much as you want on our webpage or on our social medias if you just Google “Two Guys and a Chainsaw podcast” Or get a little deeper and closer to us by joining our patrons at patreon.com/chainsawpodcast. And behind there, we have lots of chats. We’ve got minisodes. We’re going to be posting a minisode here on Dolly Parton here very shortly, but we do a lot of horror themed stuff as well.

We’ve got a book club going strong where we read horror novels and discuss those by Zoom call with the participants every couple of weeks. And you also get our complete unedited phone calls that we make these episodes from the minute that they … Well, a couple minutes after they come out anyway. You get to the unedited director’s cut- Yeah Of our podcast.

Until next time, I’m Todd. 

Craig: And I’m Craig. 

Todd: With Two Guys and a Chainsaw.